civil war.

[orion]

this time is a very strange time indeed.
there alot of revisting lincon and the civil war due to the fact he was a very strange and powerful man at the worst time in our history when brother turned on brother and a nation became split.
there alot of books on him now the repubicans love to read and well even some compare obama to him because they ran from the same state and came in at a time when the country was in great trouble.
that said for a while i thought all the obama lincon talk was pure lets find something we can stick to him nonsence.
this weekend i was kinda stunned that heathcare was passed and now there talk of states breaking away from what congress passed.
i really get a chance to see now how the civil war must came about with the potical fooder of states rights.
the repubicans want to use heath care as there states rights case now.
i seen the tea party bigots on tv and trust me thats what they are and i want no part of them one bit or to be part of any party run by zelots and neo cons.
they took this health care thing and made it a potical tool and sold the american public on the fact it was evil.
they made up storys how obama would kill old people and the unborn,it was pure red commie social change america and attack the american system.
new world order talk that would break america.
lies lies and more lies all the time they thought they could use anti black anti everything white mans burden people to push there case to kill not only the bill but the democrats.

and trust me they even start a civil war to do so.
dont think so.
times are so different.
we become more mature as a nation.
really if you belive that well i have a do nothing fix i love to sell yea.
i see the roots now of what started the civil war and its potical tools and how they forged them into weapons that would one day shed blood on american soil.
for a vote they used hate and anything they could make up.
i used to think obama had nothing in commen with lincon one bit.
such really different men really.
lincon in many ways was a man you never want president ever except ina rare case such as a civil war.
a man who was in manys ways very dangerous to have.
but that same man saw us threw our worst moments and as much as he scares me is what we needed most then.
mayby that why we look to him at our worst times and think what would you had done.
how far will the repubicans go with this anti health care agenda and the use the tea party.
will they split amercia at it seems.
will obama become what i fear most in myself or a president.
time can only tell.
but never think that a few would not use such a tool for potical gain even if it would take us there to such a place as the civil war.

[will58]

this time is a very strange time indeed.
there alot of revisting lincon and the civil war due to the fact he was a very strange and powerful man at the worst time in our history when brother turned on brother and a nation became split.
there alot of books on him now the repubicans love to read and well even some compare obama to him because they ran from the same state and came in at a time when the country was in great trouble.
that said for a while i thought all the obama lincon talk was pure lets find something we can stick to him nonsence.
this weekend i was kinda stunned that heathcare was passed and now there talk of states breaking away from what congress passed.
i really get a chance to see now how the civil war must came about with the potical fooder of states rights.
the repubicans want to use heath care as there states rights case now.
i seen the tea party bigots on tv and trust me thats what they are and i want no part of them one bit or to be part of any party run by zelots and neo cons.
they took this health care thing and made it a potical tool and sold the american public on the fact it was evil.
they made up storys how obama would kill old people and the unborn,it was pure red commie social change america and attack the american system.
new world order talk that would break america.
lies lies and more lies all the time they thought they could use anti black anti everything white mans burden people to push there case to kill not only the bill but the democrats.

and trust me they even start a civil war to do so.
dont think so.
times are so different.
we become more mature as a nation.
really if you belive that well i have a do nothing fix i love to sell yea.
i see the roots now of what started the civil war and its potical tools and how they forged them into weapons that would one day shed blood on american soil.
for a vote they used hate and anything they could make up.
i used to think obama had nothing in commen with lincon one bit.
such really different men really.
lincon in many ways was a man you never want president ever except ina rare case such as a civil war.
a man who was in manys ways very dangerous to have.
but that same man saw us threw our worst moments and as much as he scares me is what we needed most then.
mayby that why we look to him at our worst times and think what would you had done.
how far will the repubicans go with this anti health care agenda and the use the tea party.
will they split amercia at it seems.
will obama become what i fear most in myself or a president.
time can only tell.
but never think that a few would not use such a tool for potical gain even if it would take us there to such a place as the civil war.
I agree that Lincoln was a good president under exceptional circumstances... maybe Obama used to refer to Lincoln to remind that after Bush times, U.S. were going into exceptioal times again... in a bad way.

This is my European point of view, maybe i am not understanding well what it is happening in the U.S., but for sure what had been happening in the past years brought to me to get more informed about American politics...

[orion]

lincon was well a man we cant really judge by todays standards.
a man who tossed people into prison with no trail other then protesting the war.
in many ways lincon was very evil.
his stand on slavery and blacks in the army aswell as blacks rights leave many to wonder.
the fact he burned a path threw the south put into place a law that no army can bear arms on us citizens within the borders of the us.
a law that even made it imposible to shoot down any airliner on sept 11.
one wonders about how every move he made was done for effect one that has lasted over time and made the man out to be something great.
however he was just a man and like all men not without fault.
johnson was a great man who passed more laws and stood firm on so many social rights yet because he was seen as a bully and the fact the vietnam war dug such a deep wound in america that what most remember.
obama could suffer the same fate as johnson.
it hard for most people not from the usa to understand states rights as most nations lack such a concept.
the role of the surpreme court and states are well idea that native only to the united states.
states rights has allways been a place of great concern and worry.
lets hope it not used to tear us apart ever again.

[NagaSama]

Tea Party Bigot?

I am a tea party member, so tone down the rhetoric a bit will ya?

My only view on the bill is that it doesnt do anything to fix what ppl here in the states are really worried about, Jobs and the Economy.

Also, the federal government is not given the power to mandate citizens buy anything, yet they are assuming that power in this bill, therefore this bill is in direct violation of the 10th amendment which states: "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

[orion]

Tea Party Bigot?

I am a tea party member, so tone down the rhetoric a bit will ya?

My only view on the bill is that it doesnt do anything to fix what ppl here in the states are really worried about, Jobs and the Economy.

Also, the federal government is not given the power to mandate citizens buy anything, yet they are assuming that power in this bill, therefore this bill is in direct violation of the 10th amendment which states: "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

first of all what i seen pretty much made me vommit in regaurd to the tea party.
what i seen of those people pretty much showed what they were all about.
that said it a option really.
as for jobs well i dont think a health care bill is the place to start talking about that really.
but i will explaine it from my point as a small buisness owner.
i own a small company and i know all about costs.
every day everything i do or think about is about costs.
health care to me is a huge cost close to labour.
i see health care in 5 years or 10 being 60-80% of costs.
one thing small buisness is doing to offset this is to use non legal workers and the other is to subcontract everyone that normally would not be.
that means workers would not only have no heath care but they also have no ssi by me that normally paid in so the worker would have to pay double taxes.
they also have no protection of unemployment,workers comp,medi care etc so on.
anyone that works for a employer never really understands what we pay in to keep a worker.
as a small company owner i know all about bugets and cutting costs and belive me you dont need to a repubican to understand this concept.
i also know for a fact that i cant hire people if i cant keep my costs low.
i do what most are doing and that is to use people up and toss them away after.
health care is huge problem and costs are only part of it.
if someone with no health care get sick or hurt they go to the er and we pay for that.
bottom line is again we pay for them no matter what.
so govt backed heathcare is a better choice where we can controll where they go if they have no health care.
if they get sick enough well welfare is not free either.
so what would we do just throw them in prison or you rather we shoot them if they cant get health care.
when i got out of high school 20 years ago a simple job paid ur heath care 100% and even drugs were 2 buck copay and dental as well.
today it 700 dollers for a crap plan and well to be honest i cant pay half if a worker has a family.
sad really most small companys choice is to use non legal temp help because you cant hire from a temp firm over 30 days unless you start to pay into comp etc.
so what we left to do really we have no choice but to tell you you on your own.
in a large company 20% of your pay now is so called benfits but it really money you never see in the form of health care.
so if you said to make 80k it more like 60.
most of them tea party people are not small buisness owners they are unemployed factory workers that jobs are gone.
some due to they way things have gone in the last 10 years.
i seen this thing comming long ago the very same way i been saying a low doller is the only thing holding up usa right now.
most people dont know what they stand to loose till they loose it.
companys will have a choice and thats to save money by moving heath care onto you and trust me they wont stop there.
most people dont have a clue really how most companys would love to turn the usa into china where there zero worker protection.
infact i see it alot where people say f this and screw the epa or what ever govt this or that.
if they have there way you have nothing.
they turn the usa into a surfdom.
and just so you know the low doller as bad as it is on my oversea trips is what killing europe right now so all that tea party talk is pure bs.
i lived in europe i went to school there i have family there and i travel there and i laughed so hard 5 years ago when they said the doller was junk and were all on about the euro.
thats why airbus has a plant here.
pretty much all that tea party talk makes good sound bites on talk radio but it dose not slove a thing.
doing nothing never ever helped me finish a job.
doing nothing wont fix health care nor will it fix america.
doing nothing is not what drove trains arcoss the plains or built a nation.
the tea party concept is a city state nation of 12th century europe.
and if you think i some form of cali liberal your dead wrong there.
but if i have to give illigal workers in the usa so be it.
i do want tort reform and i am pissed as hell obama wont budge but i dont see any tea party or repubicans doing anything except blocking.
oh they say they wanna work with you but trust me all they wanna do is fool you with sound bites.
and i can sure promise you that if the bailout never passed we be in alot worse shape then europe.

making obama out to be a commie gun graber welfare lover might sound nice as swill down beers with the boys but it not the real truth.
same as obama killing old people.
the simple fact is the tea party is all about pissed off white people with no idea what to do so lets knock it and devert attation from 8 years of bush.

bottom line is we need this because they choices are ones most of you wont like unless rich like most repubicans in congress.

[will58]

en-dot-wikipedia-dot-org/wiki/The_Second_Civil_War

did you see the movie?

i did like it, anyway i thought it was just a satire, but that never could happen something like that....

[Trogdor]

Well, seeing how tea partiers were calling a dude with parkansas a communist, and throwing dollar bills at him tarnishing their images. Plus there were some tea partiers who were doing an illegal immigration protest, but some kid was able to get them to chant "white man go home!" was HILARIOUS.

Also, it's funny how right wing conservatives keep saying "LINCOLN WAS A REPUBLICAN! WE'RE THE GOOD GUYS AFTER ALL!"

BUT....the roles in those days were reversed, the Republicans back then were the liberals, and Democrats the conservatives. Anyone who believes Lincoln was a conservative is a lunatic.

[NagaSama]

"Well, seeing how tea partiers were calling a dude with parkansas a communist"

Uhm, you are saying that ALL tea party members were doing that? also I believe you mean Parkinson's. and what does his affliction have to do with his political affiliation? Maybe he was communist, maybe not. I am not aware of this incident.

saying an entire group is guilty of what a few may have done, isn't that rather bigoted?

[orion]

i saw that clip trogdor and i was so shocked.
well not really all you need do is look at them guys in camo and it looks like a red neck inbread summit.
some people are buying into ron pauls message of lets have zero govt and pay no taxes.
sounds great till you think of what we had 200 years ago.
ron paul a old coot.
sure his idea of lets not give 10 billion to israel is great and gose agaist the neo cons who belive jeaus is a comming soon.
and lets tone down the cold war weapons and being all over the plannet and messing with the mideast.
but we cant just dump the fed or use gold and drop out the un.
we also cant just look the other way in dafor either and the ideas that we do nothing well are pretty sad and simple fix to a complex world.
i backed obama because his values match mine for the most part.
except in the case of the mideast where he stills thinks cold war tatics will work on insurjants.
trust me they wont.
not there and not here.
did not work too well for the british did it.
and they had what over a dozen countries to try in.
i like how obama working on the nuke problem and that to me is a big easy win we can do something about.
healthcare is also a like that problem.
mideast peace well that near a imposible task that and talks with china.
most everything i stand for is really something we can fix.
doing nothing is not a fix that what we did with wall street and ssi,medicad.
doing nothing is what congress is good at.
all of a sudden the repubicans want to do nothing after 8 years bush.
where the hell were they when bush spendt billions on silly wars and all kinda israel aid.
yet programs here for WORKING class americans got cut.
you think half of america is as rich as bill gates or something.
most of all i want to end the 4000-6000 lbs cars days that cost americans lives every year and make america cleaner.
dont expect nothing to solve that problem cause it took a act of congress to give rid of lead and get us seat belts.
we need protection from companys who dont give a rats ass about the avarge joe.
most of these red necks are pissed off simple people without a clue.
i seen it before in the 80's the micheal j fox wanna be young repubicans and there back with a new message.
let wall street screw everyone over but dont bail them out.
vite for scott brown because he has a carhart jacket like me and drives a pick up with 200 grand on it like my buddy.
come on that jacket is the oldest trick in the book.
so is the do nothing idea.
do nothing and call it libertine.
jefferson could be like that at times and so was jackson but those ideas were not what built america.
and is you think lincon was a nice guy and a huge hero i have a bridge to sell yea.
but all in all it was all that came before us that built this land.
the chinese who could be killed for no reason at all.
the irish that need not apply.
the germans who dug the ore with the polish.
a nation a working class people who toiled under the sun and braved the winters and built a nation founded on values of fairness.
they gave us what they never had.
worker rights and unions.
unemployment and welfare if we fall by the road.
protection from greedy companys.
and now we want to throw it all away.
i know the price the irish paid here.
more medals of honor then all ethic groups combined and i sure as hell not going to let the blood for the civil war be forgotten they shed for there vision of a great nation.
as far as i see it all the neo cons are traitors and they lucky i not the president cause they all be lined up and shot.
i stand firm on the idea of liberty for all even the new commer who sneak in deserve the same dream our father had.
for this dream is a beacon to all in the world that one place exists where the values of human rights remains true.
we cant let everyone in and we need border protection yes true but i never want it a imposible task none the less because it is this vision they see that is the light of liberty in a dark world.

[Trogdor]

i saw that clip trogdor and i was so shocked.
well not really all you need do is look at them guys in camo and it looks like a red neck inbread summit.
some people are buying into ron pauls message of lets have zero govt and pay no taxes.
sounds great till you think of what we had 200 years ago.
ron paul a old coot.
sure his idea of lets not give 10 billion to israel is great and gose agaist the neo cons who belive jeaus is a comming soon.
and lets tone down the cold war weapons and being all over the plannet and messing with the mideast.
but we cant just dump the fed or use gold and drop out the un.
we also cant just look the other way in dafor either and the ideas that we do nothing well are pretty sad and simple fix to a complex world.
i backed obama because his values match mine for the most part.
except in the case of the mideast where he stills thinks cold war tatics will work on insurjants.
trust me they wont.
not there and not here.
did not work too well for the british did it.
and they had what over a dozen countries to try in.
i like how obama working on the nuke problem and that to me is a big easy win we can do something about.
healthcare is also a like that problem.
mideast peace well that near a imposible task that and talks with china.
most everything i stand for is really something we can fix.
doing nothing is not a fix that what we did with wall street and ssi,medicad.
doing nothing is what congress is good at.
all of a sudden the repubicans want to do nothing after 8 years bush.
where the hell were they when bush spendt billions on silly wars and all kinda israel aid.
yet programs here for WORKING class americans got cut.
you think half of america is as rich as bill gates or something.
most of all i want to end the 4000-6000 lbs cars days that cost americans lives every year and make america cleaner.
dont expect nothing to solve that problem cause it took a act of congress to give rid of lead and get us seat belts.
we need protection from companys who dont give a rats ass about the avarge joe.
most of these red necks are pissed off simple people without a clue.
i seen it before in the 80's the micheal j fox wanna be young repubicans and there back with a new message.
let wall street screw everyone over but dont bail them out.
vite for scott brown because he has a carhart jacket like me and drives a pick up with 200 grand on it like my buddy.
come on that jacket is the oldest trick in the book.
so is the do nothing idea.
do nothing and call it libertine.
jefferson could be like that at times and so was jackson but those ideas were not what built america.
and is you think lincon was a nice guy and a huge hero i have a bridge to sell yea.
but all in all it was all that came before us that built this land.
the chinese who could be killed for no reason at all.
the irish that need not apply.
the germans who dug the ore with the polish.
a nation a working class people who toiled under the sun and braved the winters and built a nation founded on values of fairness.
they gave us what they never had.
worker rights and unions.
unemployment and welfare if we fall by the road.
protection from greedy companys.
and now we want to throw it all away.
i know the price the irish paid here.
more medals of honor then all ethic groups combined and i sure as hell not going to let the blood for the civil war be forgotten they shed for there vision of a great nation.
as far as i see it all the neo cons are traitors and they lucky i not the president cause they all be lined up and shot.
i stand firm on the idea of liberty for all even the new commer who sneak in deserve the same dream our father had.
for this dream is a beacon to all in the world that one place exists where the values of human rights remains true.
we cant let everyone in and we need border protection yes true but i never want it a imposible task none the less because it is this vision they see that is the light of liberty in a dark world.

Well, I'm all for using gold, since the American dollar is backed by NOTHING. A lot of countries are trying to get away from the dollar, since there's nothing backing it.

[orion]

that gold thing is all pure bs... trust me i was all over gold rise years ago.
the low doller everyone complaines about is really only a burden in travel and oil.
goods sold here are way bcheaper then anywhere in the world and trust me a low doller protects us from trade dumping.
somewhat.
the low yaun is why we all over china pegging there money so and trust me a low value has it rewards.
years ago my family from ireland would come out here and vaca they buy everything under the sun and talk about how great the euro was and how we soo poor now.
i would laugh so hard as i watch the euro rise and there trade drop.
no one saw it it comming and inflation rise till oil hit 75 a barrel and then wham they started to shed jobs as companys ran for cover.
airbus a company made up of many nations could no longer build pllanes even if they were govt backed somewhat so they had no choice but to take a huge potical hit as they moved to the usa.
can you picture the potical fallout in france from that.
i follow this topic very close for many years and i drop some of my data on the subject.

the doller lost about 1/3 value overseas in what you get for a doller when you travel so exchange rate blows pretty much on vacation/travel.

tourism went threw the roof as the euro tourists bought up condos in fla and vaca here so we took in a lot of euros up untill 3 years ago.

a low doller was a massive boost to tourism even with oil at a record high.

with oil high and other factors the doller loss over seas was close to 50% with exchanges rates taken into account so less dollers went overseas as less people went aboard even canada took a big hit from usa tourism.

a low doller made less doller leave and more money come in as well as helped to curb china from complete and utter trade dumping to force usa companys to abondon the usa alltogether.

and it also made usa companys have a edge in europe as well as asia not not so much there as most things sold in asia are of a item they cant do themself so it euro or usa thing.

now factor in the crash and near depression.
a low doller saved are ass because less dollers left the usa and those that did were of a less value to other nations so they had less value to use in a trade war.

a low doller also was a hedge in a way to complete drop in prices.
if th doller was high as the euro was the drop would been so sharp there would had been a uttter gut of nation.
europe suffered really bad as a result and it said no one working in parts of europe it that bad.

all in all goods prices in the usa in the last 20 years have remained pretty low if not become cheaper.
look at what you pay now for a electroic item today.
no where on earth can you buy goods as cheap as in the usa be it a mp3 player or a cell phone or laptop infact even with japan 10 year ressesion they still pay 20-30 % more then we do that why there ship goods here and then back and resell on gray market.

trust me i laughed when people said japan was gonna own the usa in 80's while the mob run japan and bought up everything.
then came the crash.
china right now is all over the fox news cause china bashing works just as well as japan bashing did in the 80's it makes for great sound bites.

all that money china holds is really a double edge sword for both nations.
they cant not buy up debt or else what there holding drops fast.
they also cant sell off and short sell us because it spark what all selloff do and they end up holding the bag.
not to metion a nasty embargo or tarrifs.
infact china holding is really good in a way because it provides levarage in a way they cant undo easy.
it also dose the same for them in a trade regaurd to protect in a bad potical climate.
remeber when things go bad everyone loves to tarrif and start trade wars and bash.

bottom line is fox and the neo cons use the low doller and gold as a sound bite but it really a fool bet.
short you own nation my god how pathic.
infact thats really treason the way i see it.
and what should we do to traitors who say the doller is worthless and such.
me i saw we take them so called flag lovers out and line them up agaist a wall.
they claim to love america but they short selling our land every time they buy gold they buying into treason really.
think of it.
what if we said america sucks and lets use euros or such.
i so hate fox because for a sound bite they sell america down the river.
and everyone of the tea party idiots is really a traitor who preaches a message of dispair.
i sure hope they try something like 100 nyears ago cause i be looking forward to waterbaording sean hannity and asking him "do you still think it not torture" hahaha.

harsh words in this thread yes but this is our nation and we should never short sell it.
bottom line.