lesbian TS?

[Texxx]

since the drive to be female is innate in a TS, then is sexual orientation separate from that?
so, could someone born genetically a male desire to be a woman and be with a woman?

just curious...

[Kendall]

I think so, I am a TS woman and i wish to be with women only. Any others?

[Ecstatic]

I've encountered a few who are TS lesbians (transbians). Why not? There's a fundamental distinction between gender identification and sexual orientation.

[honeybabie]

gender identity and sexual identity are definately two seperate things. I have always been boy crazy even b4 transition. Thankfully my sexual attraction has stayed the same. However, I have heard of ts's who sexual attractions change after or during transition.

[DessiLu]

a lesbian TS is the dumbest thing ever thats just my opinion

[lisaparadise]

what r u smokin dumbest thing ever gimmie a break ill try and be nice lucky for you im in a very good mood id go out today and buy a lotto ticket

[Texxx]

i definitely agree that they are two separate things, i just hadn't emt or heard of any.
it made logical sense though.

akin to this- have any of you met a woman who was attracted to TS's?

[roseofsapphire]

Pretty much a lesbian here. They are very much a seperate thing.

For Dessi, are you saying that homosexuality in non transgenders is the dumbest thing then? There is no difference in a TS being gay than there is in a non-TS.

[jtstrap]

I have dated TS for many years and would say 85% of the girls I have known were still atracted to men, the other 15% were mostly truly bi, I have known only a few TS that were strictly attracted to GG. To answer you Texx, I know several women attracted to TS, in fact more GG attracted to TS than the other way around. I kind of understand this, I am not attracted to guys, but love TS and also GG

this faghole told me i wasnt a true transexual cause i confide in him that i was lez,lez power go get this fag hole :lol:

[DessiLu]

For Dessi, are you saying that homosexuality in non transgenders is the dumbest thing then? There is no difference in a TS being gay than there is in a non-TS.

No i'm not saying that. Gay men are gay men but why would you want to be a TS and still like women?? Just be a crossdresser that makes more sense.

[roseofsapphire]

For Dessi, are you saying that homosexuality in non transgenders is the dumbest thing then? There is no difference in a TS being gay than there is in a non-TS.

No i'm not saying that. Gay men are gay men but why would you want to be a TS and still like women?? Just be a crossdresser that makes more sense.

No, why then do gay men not become TS?

Your very logic defeats itself.

[lisaparadise]

dessi or whatever your name is your opinion its degrading to any tg,quote why not just be a cd then wtf r u talking about.a ts and a cd is way different.i dunno why im even wasting my time with this subject its stupid and makes no sence,i havent been with a woman in a very long time but ya id love to taste a pussy so what,nobody is knocking you for being a fag right.and make no mistake about it whenit comes to men and cock i make a very good living sucking dick,it doesnt maatter if its a guy tgirl or gg its not the shell of ones self that im attracted to its there heart and soul,that saying whats on the inside that counts is so true.looks can only take you so far remeber that

lisa gawd gal u crave attention..grow up...dazzle us with brilliance not baffle us with bs :P

[Ecstatic]

For Dessi, are you saying that homosexuality in non transgenders is the dumbest thing then? There is no difference in a TS being gay than there is in a non-TS.

No i'm not saying that. Gay men are gay men but why would you want to be a TS and still like women?? Just be a crossdresser that makes more sense.

No, why then do gay men not become TS?

Your very logic defeats itself.
I completely agree. Dessi, you make it sound like becoming a transsexual is a matter of choice, not a matter of one's inherent nature, and I have to disagree with that: it's the same tired argument that gays and lesbians have been fighting for decades. They don't choose to be gay, they simply are. Likewise, a transsexual (or transgendered person, to remove the onus of sexuality from the issue) doesn't choose to be TS: why on earth would she?

Now, I do agree that one may choose to be a shemale: that can be a very different matter, and in fact occurs frequently in Brazil, where many gay men go the ultimate route of feminization through hormone treatment and surgery to be "women" but nonetheless remain gay men. One of the most famous, Lisa Lawer, recently reversed her surgery, became a man again, and married his cousin. I think this may occur in the US, but is rare here. But such people are not truly transgendered in the same sense that a transsexual woman or man is. It's not a matter of choice for most, but a matter of need.

Yet that person may still be attracted to women sexually; sexual orientation and gender identification are not synonymous (though the "transbian" is undoubtedly the least common variant).

[roseofsapphire]

For Dessi, are you saying that homosexuality in non transgenders is the dumbest thing then? There is no difference in a TS being gay than there is in a non-TS.

No i'm not saying that. Gay men are gay men but why would you want to be a TS and still like women?? Just be a crossdresser that makes more sense.

No, why then do gay men not become TS?

Your very logic defeats itself.
I completely agree. Dessi, you make it sound like becoming a transsexual is a matter of choice, not a matter of one's inherent nature, and I have to disagree with that: it's the same tired argument that gays and lesbians have been fighting for decades. They don't choose to be gay, they simply are. Likewise, a transsexual (or transgendered person, to remove the onus of sexuality from the issue) doesn't choose to be TS: why on earth would she?

Now, I do agree that one may choose to be a shemale: that can be a very different matter, and in fact occurs frequently in Brazil, where many gay men go the ultimate route of feminization through hormone treatment and surgery to be "women" but nonetheless remain gay men. One of the most famous, Lisa Lawer, recently reversed her surgery, became a man again, and married his cousin. I think this may occur in the US, but is rare here. But such people are not truly transgendered in the same sense that a transsexual woman or man is. It's not a matter of choice for most, but a matter of need.

Yet that person may still be attracted to women sexually; sexual orientation and gender identification are not synonymous (though the "transbian" is undoubtedly the least common variant).

I have heard of Lisa. She did what? Wow, I couldn't even imagine. I mean honestly, going from male to female does enough on your looks, but what does going back do? YIPES!

[lisaparadise]

lisa gawd gal u crave attention..grow up...dazzle us with brilliance not baffle us with bs :Pnext time u confront me bitch sign in or was that intentional .because i have the intelligance to have an opinion and share it with mindless souls like yourself speaks volumes doesnt it.do i crave attention no but you can bet your ass i get alot of it dont i.go back to your tgirl forum and play with the losers there its rubbing off on you.end of story

[suchgreatheights]

I must agree with Dessilu, it doesn't make sense to me too. And this has been disputed anyway so much esp if you know about Bailey et al. I think its pretty obvious anyway but its not really too PC to talk about, but it really deserves a mention, since this is one social stereostype which actually is based on pretty good grounds.

I do believe that among TS who are het or lez, it is just like lesbians and gays who do not share the same family of biological causes. One view that lesbians are such due to prenatal testosterone and that gays on the other hand result from genetic factors, and similarly, differently oriented TS have different etiologies.

And like lol, I just thought I'd mention in addition (since the above is not so clear on my point but don't flame me!), that I think that one group of TS follows a social pathology similar to gay men, and the other follows one which follows het men. I do know that both undertake transition medically in the same way but really come from different background causes, and though everyone is TS, its hard to understand the other, since socially both don't mix.

Like for one if I was an incredibly good looking man, who was straight, masculine acting and had alot of attention from guys, my urges to transition wouldn't be meaningful to me, since it would be socially destructive in terms of dating and other things. (Plus that I don't feel like a woman trapped in a man's body and I didn't understand that concept in the first place.) I think that anyways there are going to be people who may or may not agree with me on this and its really expected.

[Ecstatic]

I have heard of Lisa. She did what? Wow, I couldn't even imagine. I mean honestly, going from male to female does enough on your looks, but what does going back do? YIPES!
Yep, she -- or rather, he -- did, as attested by several quite knowledgable sources (such as Louis D'mazo, the Brasilian photog). I can't quite picture it, either, and s/he was quite beautiful, but it does underscore the point that, in Brasil, not all transsexuals are "true" transsexuals in the sense of being transgendered the way we see it here in the US or in Europe.

Thailand has its own different bent as well: the culture is extremely tolerant by nature (stemming from its rich Buddhist heritage), and kathoey or "ladyboys" often see themselves as a third sex, quite happy as non-op TS who live as women but enjoy their male aspects as well (though many also do go for SRS, and some of the best SRS surgeons in the world work in Thailand).

Hi, before you read my post I want to say there's no wrong or right in someone's orientation. I just feel that the reason why its so confusing now is due the fact that weighing in sexual orientation in the past caused too many "right or wrong" debates using really bad terminology, that sexuality was dropped simply cos of political reasons, not because it had nothing to do with gender.

Likewise, a transsexual (or transgendered person, to remove the onus of sexuality from the issue) doesn't choose to be TS: why on earth would she?

It may or may not be from choice, I'm not sure, but I actually think that sexuality is really a big part of the issue and your sexual orientation for one can change how you interact socially with people. This concept is just pretty frowned upon though since really negative or suggestive terms were used and people did't like to feel like their reasons to be trans was less viable than others.

Its kinda sad when one group of TS are tied with the baggage of being extreme gay men and another being tied to a paraphilia, in other words some fetish. The bad labels cause so much politics that it destroys attempts for any further research, and really I feel its a pity since both groups face such different social challenges which require different kinds of attention.

Now, I do agree that one may choose to be a shemale: that can be a very different matter, and in fact occurs frequently in Brazil, where many gay men go the ultimate route of feminization through hormone treatment and surgery to be "women" but nonetheless remain gay men. One of the most famous, Lisa Lawer, recently reversed her surgery, became a man again, and married his cousin. I think this may occur in the US, but is rare here. But such people are not truly transgendered in the same sense that a transsexual woman or man is. It's not a matter of choice for most, but a matter of need.

There's alot of cultural differences around the world pertaining to sexuality. I think like its not acceptable here to profess to be a gay man and have a sex conversion - common view is that he is considered a "gay man" on the inside (something to this day I can't relate especially about having an inner gender).

it is a more open concept in say brazilain and thai cultures where people who undergo sex conversions are profiled into a third gender. Plus attitudes to homosexuality are different since men who sleep with transgirls are not seen as gay there, unlike in USA for instance where there's so much debate about it.

I think Lisa Lawer sounds like an exceptional case among travesti, if its assumed she reverted back cos she fell in love with a girl and got married. don't really know about the details of this.

but likeiwse in travesti culture, katoeys mostly like guys. I don't know about travestis that much but I know its unsurprising for katoey to go back to be men after they "retire" and their gender roles are mostly expression of social reactions. Like katoey do it when young due to their effemimacy, their attraction to men and being favorable to men as well, which consequently helps bring income.

And in later years katoey "revert" because of attempts to gain back male privilege (which unlike their female role is less dependant on appearance) in order to get work to survive. In other words, their gender role was an expression of social practicalities, one part for basic income and one part based on sexual orientation. But like its pretty unheard of for heterosexual men to transition in thailand, and the only reasons I can think of is that by it would be socially destructive since its likely they'd excluded from the male and katoey populations.

My point here being that there is a sizeable portion of transsexuals here, who as males exclusively liked guys, were very effeminate (less appeal to gay men), are treated better as girls, and transition based on those social reasons. I don't know for everyone but these girls usually start out as gay boys but feel out of place since masculinity is sought for in a partner, at least one in looks or behavior is preferred. I don't know what Dessilu thinks exactly when she said it but to me its difficult to comprehend why would someone (who's lez) go through such a huge permanent change jus to have a woman's body, and risk losing sexual function and may suffer stigma for being gender variant.

Don't want to veer off but I must include this. I don't know if it sounds bad but I felt becoming a girl would allow me to be treated better (especially if i am able blend in) and have possibly a better chance of a meaningful relationship with a guy (still risky to be treated badly since i'm trans but I think its a risk taken that I had nothing to lose as a skinny, effeminate gay guy).

And also, the whole concept of lesbian trans is actually quite a modern thing maybe more prevalent in the past 20-30 years. I think its something which becomes more viable now because job security is better. sorry if i used the wrong pronouns and for going OOT. gawd this got longer than i intended it to be...

[suchgreatheights]

i posted the above.. didn't realise i wasn't logged in.

[Danny Partridge]

Firstly, a agree with a lot of what suchgreatheights says about many TS's being "culturally TS" as opposed ot the classic "woman trapped in a man's body. One thing left out was that is some countries/cases, a young effeminate boy is at the bottom of the social ladder, and may identify with a strong female (relative, celebrity, etc) and feel it's easier to be a strong woman than a weak man.

Secondly, I'm also not sure about the concept of lesbianism in regards to TS: I can understand it in the case of a TS who has undergone, or desires to undergo GRS. But I can't get my brain wrapped around a "non-op lesbian". If you're that attached to your male equipment, you're not a lesbian.

[roseofsapphire]

Firstly, a agree with a lot of what suchgreatheights says about many TS's being "culturally TS" as opposed ot the classic "woman trapped in a man's body. One thing left out was that is some countries/cases, a young effeminate boy is at the bottom of the social ladder, and may identify with a strong female (relative, celebrity, etc) and feel it's easier to be a strong woman than a weak man.

Secondly, I'm also not sure about the concept of lesbianism in regards to TS: I can understand it in the case of a TS who has undergone, or desires to undergo GRS. But I can't get my brain wrapped around a "non-op lesbian". If you're that attached to your male equipment, you're not a lesbian.

I haven't seen anyone come out and say they were non-op lesbians yet on here. I know I plan on getting SRS.

[Chantel Chardonnay]

i believe each individual has there own preferences and not to judge,i am non op and wish to sty that way but i do know that our ontario govt is in the decision making process of funding grs (which they use to ) a physciatric test to see if you qualify has ? regarding this..i have seen prt of this test and if you have had fantasys as a female being with another woman you would not qualify.. chantel xox

I haven't seen anyone come out and say they were non-lesbians yet on here. I know I plan on getting SRS.

Sounds like we agree then?

[Britchlins]

Non-Op lesbian?!?!? wtf?

ok, unless theres some medical condition holding you back from srs or your in a LTR with a wife or something then i could see it, but being a single non-op lesbian? come on.... something hinky going on there. your way to attached to your uhm "maleness" to be any kinda lesbian and your destined to be forever single if you think any self respecting lesbian, GG or otherwise will accept you. all the dykes, femmes, i've ever met are WAY into pussy loving. you spring a cock on them and they will barf. ever see the reaction of a gay guy when you mention pussy? same thing goes for lesbians when you mention cock.

[Chantel Chardonnay]

what you talkin bout willis ? i did not say i was a lesbian and yes there are many non op ts girls that have gg gf"s, please read before you speak as i was talking about the govts process on funding, you open your mouth and your face disappears,,please think before you speak,thnk you !

[Britchlins]

well there is no way in hell anyone is getting funding in Ont other than those women that won thier settlement. Ontario doesnt fund srs anymore, period. besides, i wasnt replying to your post, so shut it. k thnx. my repsonse was more of a general reply regarding the thread.

and yes, even if Ontario did provide funding for srs the Clarke and or the powers that be would stop you cold in your tracks should you mention that your into grrls and not guys.

[Chantel Chardonnay]

sigh, i said they were in the process of deciding funding,i also said also im non op and wish to sty that way,is this hard to comprehend,can you say "think" thnk you chantel xox

[Britchlins]

well, if you intend to remain male bully for you, then your talking about funding for srs, make up our minds.

i stand by my opinion as i am entitled to have them. sure non-ops get into relationships with women, i could care less. i wish them happiness and long life. i've tried a bit of everything, i'm not that picky when it comes to the other persons gender as long as they are pure of heart and honest and not crazy. i've had ltr's with lesbians while i lived between genders (long story, dont ask) relationships with men and even some with some tasty Tgrrls and Tbois, i really have no prefference. everyone is an individual with personal tastes. you have a penis and your happy with it good for you (not you chantel specifically so dont bother me) but i bet you'll have a hell of a time trying to find a lebian woman to accept you like that, unless she's really hungry for the cock. (again, not talking about you chantel, i dont know you and i dont care just generalizing in relation to the parent post)

anyway, i feel anyone should go with what feels good to them, as long as your not hurting yourself, others or furry little animals i could care less. less hangups the better.

[Chantel Chardonnay]

i dont think u understand what certain phrases or words mean ,i am non op transexual not male...if you think thats male then your saying most here are men,that wouldnt go down to good with most transexuals.. thnk you ,chantel xox

[Danny Partridge]

Chantel,

I understand where you are comming from. My point was simply that I don't see how a non-op can be a "lesbian", as opposed to a "non-op who likes women".

[Danny Partridge]

Britchlins,

Why is it that people always say "long story, dont ask" right after starting the most interesting story you could want to hear? ;)

But also, even though I agree with you on most points, one thing does appear to be a conflict:

"i've had ltr's with lesbians while i lived between genders"

vs

"i bet you'll have a hell of a time trying to find a lebian woman to accept you like that, unless she's really hungry for the cock"

fill me in one what I'm missing here, please?

i dont think u understand what certain phrases or words mean ,i am non op transexual not male...if you think thats male then your saying most here are men,that wouldnt go down to good with most transexuals.. thnk you ,chantel xox

ok, if you plan on keeping your penis by deffinition your NOT A TS. TS are people that are surgery tracked, you know, changing sex IE TRANSitioning from one defined sex to the other. i think your the one thats misunderstanding phrases. if you want to get all label crazy you would be refered to as a transgenderist. and as i said before, the only reasons i could see someone that reffers to themselves as TS that arent going under the knife is due to either medical conditions that would prevent them from doing so or becuase of marriage/relationships where they are taking thier SO's sexual wellbeing into consideration.

[Chantel Chardonnay]

everyone see things diff ,i myself like men but there are others who like woman and call themselves lesbians,i have no qualms with that as im not a girl who judges others, even if i disagree doesnt make my opinion right,if you love or attracted to someone i dont believe it matters what sex you are,i have to disagree with you on that one who keeps there penis cannot be a ts,chantel xox

[Britchlins]

i was born Intersexed, IE: born with ambiguous genitalia. partly developed male and female genitals, one ovary, one felopian tube, no womb, no cervix. PAIS. i had surgery at 2 week old, 7years old, 12years old and then my final corrective surgery provided by the top guy in my country Dr Brassard just 4 years ago. so basically i lived my whole life up till 4 years ago with 2 genders. and no gender identification on my photo ID or my birth certificate or passport..

makes it real tough when you get pulled over and they always try to confiscate my ID saying its fake because of that, not to mention trying to get my taxes done, travel, by smokes/booze etc.

there you go, long story made real short. i hang out with TS's and tg's because my own community is so small. and i'm relatively well accepted by the TS community even though i never really went through a transition persay. i did however spend most of my childhood at the Clarke in Toronto being treated like a lab rat and after being raised as a female like they told my parents to do, they told me they wanted me to try living in male mode for a year before i could qualify for srs funding, which i did. and after a year i couldnt cope with it so i went back to living as a female and got my letters of approval, just to find out funding had been cut in ontario.

there, long story short though kinda muddled (hint, its not something i like to talk about really because it hurts lots to remember all that shit)

[Danny Partridge]

I'm so sorry to bring up something painful to you. I hope you realize that it's only because I think you bring a unique perspective to these talks, and it's so important to have some more "light" and less 'heat" in some of these discussions.

[Britchlins]

so anyway, having lived on all sides of the gender spectrum and being in many different types of relationships with people of various flavours of gender identity and sexual identity and after being involved in one community after another i figured i could bring my expirences to the forum.

i never said it was impossible for a non-op to have a lesbo relationship, i said it would be tough to find one. i also never said i was non-op, quite the opposit actually.any relationship i ever had with a lesbian we both understood that i was surgery tracked, just funding takes a long time to come by and most lesbians cant cope with being in love with someone who is stuck in-between genders or that has a penis. unless of course there are extenuating circumstances.

chantel please stop trying to make this a personal thing, its a chat forum and i have no interest in arguing with anyone. i just stated my opinion from my very own expiriences. from discussing at length these sorts of topics with literally thousands of people. the general concesus was that *most* GG/TS lesbians arent that into being with non-ops due to them wanting to keep thier penis.

[Britchlins]

thanks danny i appriciate it.

it is painfull to talk about, dredges up lots of bad feelings and memories. but it is a part of what makes me, me.

[Danny Partridge]

most lesbians cant cope with being in love with someone who is stuck in-between genders or that has a penis.

the general concesus was that *most* GG/TS lesbians arent that into being with non-ops due to them wanting to keep thier penis.

I'm sure that I don't find either of those statements hard to accept, in the same way I accept that "most straight men cant cope with being in love with someone who is stuck in-between genders or that has a penis" or "the general concesus was that *most* straight men arent that into being with non-ops due to them wanting to keep thier penis".

[roseofsapphire]

i dont think u understand what certain phrases or words mean ,i am non op transexual not male...if you think thats male then your saying most here are men,that wouldnt go down to good with most transexuals.. thnk you ,chantel xox

ok, if you plan on keeping your penis by deffinition your NOT A TS. TS are people that are surgery tracked, you know, changing sex IE TRANSitioning from one defined sex to the other. i think your the one thats misunderstanding phrases. if you want to get all label crazy you would be refered to as a transgenderist. and as i said before, the only reasons i could see someone that reffers to themselves as TS that arent going under the knife is due to either medical conditions that would prevent them from doing so or becuase of marriage/relationships where they are taking thier SO's sexual wellbeing into consideration.

Actually, you are the one that is wrong.

Gender fluidity is becoming a much more common occurence, especially with the younger generations.

Transsexuality is about the transition between genders, but it has nothing to do with the culmination of said transition. If someone chooses to be male 3 days of the week and female 4 days of the week, they are no less transsexual than someone that lives 7 days a week as a female but chooses to keep the male parts.

Gender fluidity is not something that is going to go away and will only become more accepted and defined as time goes one. People are starting to realize that having an acceptance for all parts of life and the body is far more fulfilling that being stuck with the generics.

[roseofsapphire]

chantel please stop trying to make this a personal thing, its a chat forum and i have no interest in arguing with anyone. i just stated my opinion from my very own expiriences. from discussing at length these sorts of topics with literally thousands of people. the general concesus was that *most* GG/TS lesbians arent that into being with non-ops due to them wanting to keep thier penis.

Lay off Chantelle please. You are the one that misread most of her posts and assumed them to be about you.

[Britchlins]

i agree with gender fluidity, in fact i'd be happy if there wasnt any specific gender at all. that would make most of these conversations moot. most younger peoples now are androgenous for the most part anyway. at least where i live.

and i wasnt getting on chantel at all. she just misread one of my posts which had nothing to do with her at all and took it personaly, i was just trying to convey to her that i wasnt attacking her at all, in fact i never noticed her replies what-so-ever as i was responding to the parent poster. everyone is entitled to thier own opinions, thats what makes forums work.

as i already stated, i could care less what floats anyones boat, i'm just speaking from my own personal expiriences, things i've learned from and about people on my own. and relating them to the topic at hand. notice i never once said that non-ops have never been involved in lesbian relationships?

[Britchlins]

see, danny seems to understand what i was getting at.

[Leah]

Doesn't matter to me... What matters is physical attractiveness and mental ability...

Why cut yourself off from 50% of the population, increase your chances of having fun every night by being bi LOL

[WillowQueen]

Wow... a first I thought this was new. Why dig it up... I don't believe these people are even here anymore.