The term "ladyboy"

[Juliana_Dominguez]

Hello all, My name is Juliana and I am a Filipina transsexual, I am very much particular about how girls refer themselves as "ladyboys". I am an activist and I am pursuing awareness and empowerment to transsexual women in the Philippines. I am a member of STRAP (Society of Transsexual Women of the Philippines) and we want to reach out to girls here in our country and trying to educate them.

I'll give you a little background about myself, I was born and raised in the Philippines, i knew when i was 3 years old that i am different, i know I am a girl but the people around me seem to put me into what is considered normal, (would cut my hair short, would buy me blue stuff instead of the pink one that I like) but growing up, I am very feminine, and they have noticed, just with how i walk, talk and do things, they have seen femininity, they seems to just think that I am just an effeminate gay boy, but i thought differently, Here in my country, "Bakla" is what people call us which translates gay in the english dictionary, yes, the Filipino society is used to having "Bakla" as collective term for gay man, transvestites, transsexuals whether pre op, non op, or post op. So here in my country it's just a matter of if you're effeminate, you're "Bakla", if you're a transsexual, you're "Bakla", it's basically an umbrella term. So that's what my family thought i am, a "Bakla", well yes, I am a "bakla" cause it's an umbrella term for gay man, transsexuals, bisexuals even, so yea. But i came to my mom and told her that I am not a "Bakla" but i am a WOMAN, she was shocked when i told her that cause they just thought of me as just a flamboyant gay boy who dresses girls clothes all the time even in public, wears make up, wears panties and bras, grows hair and has a feminine voice... So people said, "You gotta be kidding me, You are not a woman, you're a man, see? even on your ID, It says "M" and i told a white lie, I have underwent surgery already so I am a woman... but the laws here in the Philippines wouldn't allow name changes and sex changes on the documents, (that is one thing STRAP is working out and what we are fighting for, the legal issues, So even on documents ID, passports etc, The sex, they won't change it) Anyway, enough about me or that, why am i saying this, For me it's soooo hard that people here in my country don't see transsexuals as woman, mostly, they don't even know want a transsexual is... all they know is "Bakla" and we don't wanna be bakla's, we want people to just see as Transsexual women as women, and not have issues as with we shouldn't grow our hairs because we're still considered men, or we shouldn't use the ladies bathroom cause, legally, we're still men, It's my vision to see Filipino people open their minds and their hearts to accepting that transsexuals are women too and to let them know that sex and gender is different, but what do they say that haunts me, "Ay, magbabago ka rin at magiging lalake" which translates (There will come a time wherein us girls will be straight again) and i said, "Hindi na po, kasi babae po talaga ang sinisigaw ang puso, kaluluwa at isip ko at hindi na po ako magbabago" which translates (I am a woman by heart and by mind and my soul and there's no way that i will be whatever you want me to be) cause that's what they see on TV wherein the post op transsexual regrets what he did and decided that he is a man, which is purely fucked up to me, In the first place, they should have done SRS for themselves and not for their boyfriends in which they have did, so now they regret it. The Filipino people needs to have more awareness, I know it's just labels but it defines what a person really is. As well as the girls, I wanted to reach out to them and give them empowerment, Well as what i can see, I am really happy that at least transsexualism is going mainstream, with all the movies, documentaries, etc that is out there. Afterall all we need is a voice and unity so that we could be heard.

Well so, we're very much far from what I have wanted to point out, I see tons of girls and hear from they say and use "ladyboy" and refer it to themselves, I know, it's the European influence, cause that term started when the European went to Thailand and Philippines and coined the term "ladyboy" for the girls. So one girl asked me, is it okay if I get call or I call myself a ladyboy? My reply goes something like this, Ladyboy is a term that is coined for the girls that work in the adult industry, to attract foreign men that on our lands there are freaks that are girls but have they do have a penis. I like lady but I am not a boy... The girl said, I am not a boy either, so I am a girl so i don't like the word ladyboy, I won't use it. I said, I prefer us to be called women, ladies, girls...

[Jordan]

I'm butting in here, I was born and raised in Europe myself, I think the term "Lady Boy" is degrading, like some americans call TS "He-she's, NOW thats offensive to no end!!

[Ecstatic]

Well, Juliana, here I am (as you know) with the website "piladyboy.com" because it identifies the models (except for occasional guests) as pilipina and as ladyboys because that's the term that's come into use to distinguish pilipina m2f transsexuals from bakla as more generically "gay men." Likewise, Steven is here with ladyboy-ladyboy.com, which began featuring Thai ladyboys and includes transsexuals from all over Asia. But I think both of us are very supportive of and sympathetic to exactly the issues that you raise, and I've always considered m2f transsexuals as women. Ladyboy, as you say, has a definite meaning in the adult entertainment world, but doesn't reflect and is actually negative of the non-adult but very real world of pinay and Asian (and by extension all) transsexuals.

So what to do? I think pinay transwomen working in the sex industry adopted the term ladyboy because it is at least more accurately descriptive than the umbrella term bakla, but it's from outside pilipina society and doesn't fit. It fits better in Thailand, as it's a loose translation in English of the Thai kathoey or sao praphet song ("a second type of woman"), but it's mostly used in the sex industry.

There's an interesting paper online by Sam Winter entitled "What Made Me This Way? Contrasting Reflections by Thai and Filipina Transwomen" (http://wwwsshe.murdoch.edu.au/intersections/issue14/winter.htm) which you may want to read. In part, Winter writes: "Arguably, history has been less kind to gender variance in the islands now called the Philippines [than in Thailand]. Serena Nanda has described the '"sexualising" and masculinising of Filipino culture' by successive Arab, Spanish and American dominations. She details the effects on relationships between men and women, on same-sex sexual relationships, as well as on gender variant people. Carolyn Brewer has focused on the role played by the Spanish, remarking on early colonists' reports of cross-gender bayog, bayoc, and asog shamans and babaylan ritual facilitators all of whom offended the sensibilities of the newcomers."

He also writes: "In the Philippines, there is no widely used term understood to refer only to transwomen. Someone an English-speaking Westerner might call a transwoman will likely be labelled by other Filipinos (and may label herself) bakla (used in the north) or bayot (used in the centre and south of the country).[22] The words are broad in meaning, and despite the propagation of the word 'gay' in the 1960s, continue to be applied to a wide range of males who deviate from masculine gender norms. These include at least some men erotically attracted to other men, men whose manner or appearance marks them as 'effeminate,' men displaying cowardice, and even young men who remain a virgin after a certain age. What unites them in the eyes of Filipinos is that they are 'not real men' [hindi lalake]. They have something of the pusong babae [heart of a woman] about them. In the absence of more concise Filipino vocabulary, the Western concept of transgenderism demands entire phrases—for example, bakla na kinikilalang ang sarili bilang isang babae [bakla identifying as woman (Tagalog)], or bayot panghunahuna pariha sa babaye [bayot living as a woman (Cebuano)]."

Sidebar: as for cultural differences between Thailand and the PI, in Thailand there's the creation myth which long predates the arrival of Buddhism in Thailand between 2300 and 1700 years ago, which states that in the beginning, the great mother created three types of humans: male, female, and kathoey. However, the kathoey became very jealous of the woman because she wanted the man for herself, and she killed the woman. But the man and kathoey could not bear children, so the great mother killed them and started fresh. This time the kathoey felt "his" male energy ascendant, and jealous of the man, killed him to live with the woman as a sister. Because they were sisters and not husband and wife, the union was again childless, and the great mother killed them and began fresh a third time.

This final time, the great mother pulled the third katoey aside and said that the man and woman must live together and produce children so that creation could go on. The kathoey was to have a special role, but had to accept this marriage as sacred. The kathoey agreed, and from this beginning the Lanna people came into being, filling the valley with their offspring.

[Delilah]

Hi Juliana!
I just joined this site and not sure if my profile has been completed yet.
I am half Filipina and half white. I was born in Angeles City and raised in Florida where I still am currently reside.

First of all, I have to commend you with lots of confetties. I think your cause is very noble and you are an outstanding woman. I am proud of you for what you stand.

I am also a Transgendered Woman and I have always thought the word Ladyboy, She-Male, He-She is the most disrespectful term ever. I find it offensive and demeaning. But you have those in the 'pro' field that use that term only to attract the attention of 'johns' that only knows those terms.

I was at another forum where a huge debate among men who uses different terms. When you say 'Transgendered' or 'Transsexual' the first thing that comes into their mind is, "Oh man, they already have it cut off..." or "Their extra doesn't work anymore..." But when you use those belittle words that only 'pro' uses, these guys ears stands straight up (and other things) like a dog who just heard a bag of chew bones opening up. When I posted the differential terms and what it's predominatly designed to do, their first response to that is... "so, how much do you charge?" I'm like "WTF??"
I gave up on them...lol

Anyways, I support your cause and one day I would love to visit my homeland. I have always thought Transgenderism is accepted in Philippines but I'm guessing I was wrong after all. However, the men in Australia seem to have profound interest in Filipina TGirls. Why is that? Ooops, going off topic here.

I totally agree with you. The ladyboy term isn't a good word but I don't see it fading anytime at all. I still see the term 'she-male' and it's like someone running their nails down the chalk board ewwwwwwwww :(

My name is Delilah by the way. I'm glad to see more Filipina Transwomen doing something about what they believe in. I'm also glad to see all other race of Transwomen doing what they believe in.

[BeardedOne]

Hi Juliana, great subject/question.

It never occurred to me that 'ladyboy' was, or could be, as offensive as 'shemale' and similar references are to transgendered gurls ('Gurls' being my spelling, just to sort things out a bit) In my lifetime I've known quite a few gender-variant people, so it is a constant live-and-learn experience that varies by the person, the venue (Did I meet them at a party, at work, or a porn seminar?), and how raucous their own personality may be.

Even before I got involved in the online T community, I had always disliked terms such as 'shemale' and agree with Delilah's opinion that it is like nails on a chalkboard (And I am speaking as someone that is outside the experience of actually =being= T). Now, not only in the social mix of the lifestyle (Mostly online, as I am pretty much a hermit in the 'real' world), I work with a dotcom that offers adult material from the transgender entertainment venues and often find myself blushing when I whisper the word 'shemale' in a video title. It's just not a word I want to use.

On occasion, as I mentioned above, I will alter the spelling of a word to convey an idea or image, hence my spelling of 'gurl' to denote a difference from 'girl' (Generally meant to denote a GG). That's in written correspondence or internet posts. In face-to-face conversation, it can get tricky. I've actually had the occasional friend or cohort stop me in a conversation and ask "Is this 'gurl' with a 'U' or 'girl' with an 'I'?" to clarify my point. My intersexed lover, born genetically male but with primarily female characteristics, always referred to himself in writing as a 'boi'.

There is also a comfort zone that some people have wherein words that cut like a knife when spoken by one person can be almost a term of endearment from another. If Joe Lunchbox at the corner bar were to call me a 'cocksucker', I'd be somewhat offended and feel threatened, yet when one of the gurls at the 'Locker Room' called me that one night I thought she was being sweet on me. :sillywink:

[CamBrazille]

With all due apologies to any and all who are and may be offended by use of the terms ladyboys and shemales, or any similar such words, please keep in mind that some of us may use these terms solely in these such forums. Like many admirers, we simply use the term ladyboy(s) in reference to Southeast Asian, Oriental and Pacific Island girls. Shemale, ladyboy, and other such generic terms are often, rightly or wrongly, simply used for brevity and generalization.

I love and adore many transgendered ladies and respect them in the utmost. When I talk about them to my associates who know that I like transgendered girls I refer to them as "special girls" in order to distinguish them from genetic girls, because I for one believe that, without getting overly technical, transgendered and transsexual girls are indeed special; VERY special. And thank God for you all! With love,

Cam Brazille

[maggiegee]

I find the term extremely offensive.

I don't feel that we as transwomen should use it, or allow others to
use it in reference to us.

Terms that will keep me off the soapbox http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l2/magi43/angrysoapbox.gif

You won't go wrong with these: women, ladies, female,
transwomen, transsexual, transgender, t-girl, transperson.

Gender variant and gender dysphoric person are okay but sound
very clinical. TS and TG also are acceptable as abbreviations.

And just between you, me and the 10,000 other people reading
this, using any of the above terms will endear you to a trans -
woman quicker and more effectively than calling her a "she-male',
'he-she', 'shim', 'lady boy', tranny and sluts with sausage /
dolls with balls / babes with boners / women with wangs / chicks with
dicks / moms with meat / playmates with prostates / debbies with dongs
/ heroines with hard-ons / dykes with dinks / bitches with beef /
wives with weiners / whores with more / widows with woodies /
tricks with tripods / nieces with nuts / females with foreskin / bimbos
with bones / princesses with penises / nuns with knobs / skanks with
scrotums / gals with gadgets / skirts with schlongs / sisters with snakes /
broads with rods / tramps with testes / cunts with cocks / wenches with
wee-wees / girls with gonads / nannies with nightsticks / pinays with
pipes / shrews with salami / chicas with chubbies / harpies with helmets /
dominatrixes with dipsticks / succubuses with sacks / maidens with
members / bachlorettes with bishops / goddesses with goliaths /
hoochies with hoses / vixens with vipers / foxes with fucksticks /
actresses with anacondas / dames with ding-dongs / mistresses with
manginas / tarts with tools / hotties with hammers / femmes with
footlongs, , which are all perjorative or deragatory terms created by
the porn industry for marketing purposes.

[ottorocket]

Any time you associate a type of porn with a clever term, that term IMO becomes its own strict definition meant to label those players in that arena and should not be used to define others. Ladyboy, shemale, tranny...all sound to me like derogatory terms that label paid participants in fetish porn and not the girls who have lives like Juliana. I think its a slap in the face to the community to bring those terms into ordinary conversation, outside of speaking directly about those on certain websites, and thus I use normal terminology when speaking to tg girls.

[Ecstatic]

Great points, both Maggie and ottorocket. However, as I know Maggie knows, the situation in Thailand is rather different, and the term katoey (sometimes spelled kathoey) long predates modern porn, the Internet, or farang sex tourism--by centuries, if not millenia. So the English translation of ladyboy doesn't carry the same baggage there that it does here or elsewhere. Yet that usage (porn/sex trade) of the terms katoey and ladyboy has gained significantly in recent years, so the negative connotation has gained ground accordingly. (Originally katoey referred to an intersexed individual--sometimes called a hermaphrodite--but in the 20th century came more and more to refer to a MtF transsexual or even a very effeminate gay male.)

I think the Pinay tgirls picked up on ladyboy because it filled a huge gap in their vocabulary, since there is no term for a MtF transsexual in Tagalog or Cebanu or other Pilipino languages and they really did not like the umbrella terms bakla or bayot, which refer very broadly to any gay man including, unfortunately, the transgendered. Yet again the connotation is too often porn or sex trade oriented, so it's not a great option outside of that range.

Labels. Who needs them?

[flabbybody]

I'm probably not too different from many of of my generation who's first exposure to the scene was in the seedy porn parlors of Times Square and the back pages of Screw Magazine. Shemale, he-she, chicks with dicks were the only terms I knew in the 1970's and 80's. It's not until the raging hormones subsided a bit before I realized these women were very real people with huge challenges and disadvantages facing their lives. The net and forums like this played a huge role too.

So mature chasers like myself are still a work in progress. be patient with us

[ami7mina]

Lol I feel kinda guilty using ___shemale as my nick name. ( I thought that wasnt offensive at first) but if I use tranny is that offensive too? cause most guys in chat know shemale rather than tranny.

[ottorocket]

Most guys don't know squat...lol You have to educate them how to respect you and use terms that dont have negative connotations. IMO they should just call you by your name or as a lady.

[sass]

Now, what do I think about the word ladyboy? Can you tell me what is the difference between calling a transgender/transsexual girl/woman A MAN and calling her a ladyboy? I don't see any difference there.

Alright there is: ladyboy, at least, contains the word lady.

The word "lady" in ladyboy acts as a cushion for the unconscious imposition of the identity "boy" to these women, thereby unwittingly supporting the view of society that these women are "really" boys/males/men they are just "lady-like".

I don't know if I'm conveying this in the clearest possible way. But I hope you get my drift.

I rest my tongue.

Warmly,
Sass

PS. And yes, calling us just by our preferred name IS the most polite thing to do. Every person is a sexual orientation and a gender of his/her own (e.g my gender is Sass, and those who are "sexually/romantically" attracted to me are sassexual.) Pretty, no? :-)

[Ecstatic]

Now that's a thought-provoking, articulate, and multifaceted response, Sass. You've hit on a number of quite valid points, including apparently contradictory aspects (which, as you indicate, depend upon one's perspective, such as the value of transgender porn).

Very interesting that you've worked with Sam Winter. I have very often referred to his and Nuttawut Udomsak's 2002 research paper Male, Female and Transgender: Stereotypes and Self in Thailand and continually find new insights in that work (this study in particular included questionaires of 204 MtF Thai transgenders with a mean age of 23 years). I've yet to absorb the entire work, and would love to read the results of the Pilipino study that followed, and find it fascinating that you worked with him.

It sounds quite plausible to me that the Thai term ladyboy (English rendition of katoey) came to the PI by way of Western men seeking more Asian transgenders in the sex trade. I wonder if it was primarily porn sites; in Thailand porn is actually a small subset of the sex culture, which is primarily focused on sex tourism, the bars, street workers, etc.; porn is very much outlawed there and I think came much later, with the spread of the Internet, to serve up the Thai sex trade to farang who would never visit the country itself. But I don't know how active the sex trade is in the PI comparatively.

Western men may have introduced the term ladyboy, and while Pinay transwomen would not tend to refer to themselves in a derogatory, explotative fashion as "ladyboys," it does seem that many of those transgender who escort or model actively have picked ladyboy as the referent, given that there is no equivalent term in Tagalog or Cebanu to distinguish tgirl from gay. And just as here in the US they'll use terms like shemale, tranny, and tgirl: the reference is known, so it clarifies things immediately for the clientel.

Very good point about celebrating the uniqueness of the transgender's body and sexuality; that is of course what drives the market in both porn and prostitution. But it's also a step towards recognition, albeit demeaning and limiting, it is also freeing and the beginning of acceptance. What I mean is that more people become aware of transgender women who have never been aware of them before, or only very distantly, and with that awareness gradually acceptance can follow. I've seen this on transgender forums over the years, as guys who initially join a forum just for sexual kicks gradually comes to understand and be supportive of transgender rights.

Sass, I think you've written the most insightful, thoughtful 3rd post I've ever read! You've enriched our forum, and I thank you.

[sass]

The study that Dr Winter and I did is going to be published by Haworth Press in New York in the Spring Issue of the International Journal of Transgenderism this year. If I'm not mistaken, it's Volume 11.


Warmly,
Sass

[Ecstatic]

- So it's something like "Jerk Off for a Cause" thing. If you were jerking off, wouldn't it make you feel much better that what you're paying for your libidinal fix/kinks isn't just enriching someone's pocket but actually enriching the lives of the people whose images are helping you to shoot out your mess?

"Jerk Off for a Cause" - I love it! And I agree. At this point, revenues at my sites (piladyboy and maybangkokxxx) are way too small to allow monetary charity contributions, though I hope the sites grow to the point where we can. At present, on piladyboy.com we have a forum which includes transgender issues, especially postings related to STRAP.

Also, good point about "project X" not being able to advertise support by a porn site as that would put off other supporters; such support I think would have to be anonymous on the project's or charity's part, though the porn website could and should tell its members that it supports the project or charity.

5. The study that Dr Winter and I did is going to be published by Haworth Press in New York in the Spring Issue of the International Journal of Transgenderism this year. If I'm not mistaken, it's Volume 11.

Excellent! I look forward to reading it.

[Hawaiidiver2]

certainly eduction is needed as I chat with Filipina TS's on line that refer to themselves as "shemales" not knowing that in most of the western world it is thought of as negative and connected to the porn industry. Pt Barnum couldn't have come up with a better term to use for his circus side-show acts. Anyway you say it.....it's an ugly term.

[ladyboyforyou]

hi guys hope you wont mind about my username.

[Ecstatic]

Mabuhay, ladyboyforyou! Welcome to TGT!

[Bad123456]

candy lady will be nicer and more lovely :cool:

[brian56]

Hi, first off, yes I am a male! Ecstatic, your sole angle I believe is to support that from which I assume you get a living, the porn trade! To me, on a personal basis, the terms ladyboy, shemale, tranny all denote a connection to the porn business. The use of such titles, by transexuals does send signals to many who are in the know, and on at least some occasions very innocent people get hurt.