Prejudices on the internet...from trans people.

[Wondergirl]

Hi everyone:

I am going to try to make a serious topic (because I am so damn serious all the time), its not a new topic but I recently went to another message board www.susans.org , they always have discussions about what makes a woman.

The creators and many post op transsexual women always make a point that if you don’t want a sex reassignment surgery, you are not a real woman.

Recently, I read the creator said something along the line of, “well, we (post op transsexuals) will entertain those who call themselves girls but don’t want srs, but that’s not what “we” really believe in.”

I found it distressful that the creator of this supposedly inclusive board would even say something like that, and I am pretty sick of the “I am more women than you” fan club from the post op women who post on those message boards.

I just want to ask, what’s the deal with trans oriented message board? Why do the post op who post there always have such a big freaking chips on their shoulders? Do they represent the transsexual community? How many of the underprivileged trans people actually bother to go these sites and feel rejected by these general attitudes from those elites who feel that they are more legitimate women because they had a surgery?

After all, if those post op feel so womanly like and a lot of them said they don’t even think of themselves as transsexuals , than why the hell are they still chatting and going n a trans oriented message board?


I just don’t understand what aspect of pushing one’s penis back into a vagina makes someone more woman than the other person who doesn’t want to do the surgery.

Honestly, I like boards like these more, because at least it is more inclusive and less judgemental.


If anyone here knows any trans message board with less wealthy elites post op on the top of the hierarchy screaming and looking down on the transsexuals/transgender people on their self identification , I would love to know about it. thanks an have a nice sunday@

Thanks
Cheers
Dee

[EdNigma696]

Fascinating post! I had no idea that girls who have had SRS discriminate or are judgemental of those who have not. I just don't get that! Of course, like you, that is one of the things I like so much about TGT over other places I have had the chance to talk to TGs. I learn a lot here and nobody here (that I know of at least) treats anyone badly based on whether or not they've had SRS or anything else for that matter. :-)

[EdNigma696]

Oh, and I forgot: Love your new avatar! Absolutely adorable!

[Wondergirl]

Fascinating post! I had no idea that girls who have had SRS discriminate or are judgemental of those who have not. I just don't get that! Of course, like you, that is one of the things I like so much about TGT over other places I have had the chance to talk to TGs. I learn a lot here and nobody here (that I know of at least) treats anyone badly based on whether or not they've had SRS or anything else for that matter. :-)

Yes, I like this place. There doesn't seem to be any elitism here and anyone can talk about anything they want without people throwing metaphorical rocks at them.

I think whether if I have srs is my personal decision and I don’t think anyone has the right to judge other’s people identity because they want to feel better about their surgical decision.

Those who must absolutely have surgery are the most distressful about their genital, but that to me, miraculously, does not indicate that they are more genuine women. I mean, look at the female to male transsexuals, many of them will say they are absolutely men without having a penis. If gender is in the brain, than people should act like it, SRS does not create womanhood, it’s a medical surgery to minimize the stress of those who have a very serious problem with their genitals. While no women would want a penis, it doesn’t mean all women want to fucking get rid of it through this highly surgical and complicated process. There is no magic surgery to create a vagina. It’s a compromise , its very costly , it might have complications and it’s a very personal thing.

I understand having a vagina is a different experience than having a penis, I understand all that, but I also understand women who have gone through pregnancy also experience another sense of womanhood. It’s just cheap and dirty politics to make a spectrum about womanhood based on these ridiculous comparisons between pre op , non op and post op.

And if I had the surgery, I wouldn’t be flaunting my surgery at other people face to tell them how I am more of a woman than those who are not sure or doesn’t want to have surgery. Yeah, you had the surgery, you want a medal?


I have absolutely nothing against the surgery, I am just angry when people use their surgery as a way to say they are more genuine than others who doesn’t or am not sure about the surgery.

Perhaps the most ridiculous post op transsexuals are those who log onto a trans message board everyday telling people they don’t feel trans anymore. Well, duh, why the hell are you still here then?

Of course, there are also wonderful post op that I know, who seem more women to me, because they don’t need to put down other to feel good about their choices.

I am sorry if i offended anyone, but I don't care so I am not really sorry. Thanks for letting me to be on the soap box. :)

Thanks. I like the avatar too, maybe I show a little too much..oh well.

[seanchai]

"...show a little too much ..." no, not at all :-) I digress.

As long as I've had tg's as friends and met many all over the world, this hierachy has always existed. In Thailand for example, many girls will simply have the SRS surgery, to be able to say they've had it, without giving a thought to the consequences or reality. Many (by no means all) are unhappy afterwards.

The ultimate goal of a transgender should be to be accepted as that gender that they've transitioned into. Girls don't have penises. They don't have surgically constructed vagina's either but the outside appearance increases the transition and the psychological benefits for many individuals further enhances their transition.

I've seen girls (including some on this board) rip into transgenders who are yet unable, to dress and live as a woman fulltime (or who haven't been able to get breast or FFS surgery - or start on hormones) there is a definate hierachy there, also, which I disagree with.

What it comes down to, is the ongoing issue of having to pidgeonhole everyone, including the guys who like transgenders, into named groups (pre-op, post-op, full time, parttime, blah, blah). The girls you've mentioned seem to be very bitter about girls who are yet to have SRS, or girls who've decided that they are comfortable with their transition without having then surgery.

In my opinion, each person is different and each person knows how far they need to transition to be able to live their life fully and comfortably. For others, to insist on surgery or otherwise, for inclusion, is sad, bitter and dangerous.

seanchai

[Ecstatic]

Excellent posts, Dee. As you and Seanchai point out, this hierarchy persists amongst some transgenders. This is one of the underlying reasons that it's been such a long, hard row to hoe for transgenders to attain parity in our society, as evidenced by the recent ENDA debacle. I fully agree with you that it's what's in the mind, not the genitals, that determines gender. And as my very first TG lover (a non-op girl) put it, no one outside the bedroom needs to know what's between her legs.

BTW, I love your quote. I've been reading Dawkins' The God Delusion and have found it extremely informative, if a bit of a diatribe here and there. I'm just reading his thoughts regarding memes and the parallels between cultural (and religious) "evolution" wherein memes parallel genes in biological evolution. Interesting, heady stuff.

[River]

Though I think everywhere in society there are pecking orders. Hot girls look down on 'OK' Looking girls, 'OK' Looking girls look down on Ugly girls...so on and so forth. So why would trangendered segment of our society that loves pecking orders be any different. Does it make it right? No. But I do believe it is part of human nature.

[EdNigma696]

Though I think everywhere in society there are pecking orders. Hot girls look down on 'OK' Looking girls, 'OK' Looking girls look down on Ugly girls...so on and so forth. So why would trangendered segment of our society that loves pecking orders be any different. Does it make it right? No. But I do believe it is part of human nature.

You know, I think that is a really good point. This happens in ALL walks of life! I play (not very well) classical guitar and my instructor was a very unattractive man who happened to be a quite gifted guitarist. I mentioned to him that I saw Liona Boyd play. Liona Boyd is a very attractive female player who is quite well known among classical guitarists. To my surprise, he had studied music with her and told me he couldn't understand her success. She is talented he told me, but no more so than any of the guys he went to school with. I asked if anyone else looked like her and he said "that shouldn't matter". Yeah, "shouldn't" but it does. A lot!

[Ecstatic]

EdNigma, to take your guitarist analogy a step further, consider Charo, who has been known almost exclusively as the "cuchi cuchi girl" for 40 years, an amazingly beautiful woman with a knock-out body who happens to be an astounding Flamenco and classical guitarist. She was named Flemenco guitarist of the year by Guitar magazine two years in a row, and at the age of 14 studied with Andres Segovia, widely acknowledged the greatest Flemenco and classical guitarist of his generation. Yet she's known for her body and looks, and people are flabergasted to hear her play. She doesn't complain; she says "Around the world I am known as a great musician. But, in America I am known as the cuchi-cuchi girl. That's okay because cuchi-cuchi has taken me all the way to the bank."

[kalina]

Musicians can be supremely jealous of others' success. Back in 2001, I was on mp3.com promoting my music as "Gorgeous Girl" and was one of the top artists on that site making over $20,000 in one year. In the beginning I got nothing but praise for my music, but as I became more popular on that site as well as on MTV, I started getting hatemail from people who claimed they were musicians and told me I would be better off "making babies," "sticking my legs up in the air for porn," and other nonsense. Two people even tried outing me on the site by putting up side by side pictures of me as well as my boy pics from years back.

"See?" one of them said. "Divinity Lee (my music persona name) is really this guy right here!"

I felt slightly miffed until a couple of people responded, "So? She makes good music. I don't care who she was born as!"

That made me feel good. :) Plus, you wouldn't believe who in the music world responded to me and admitted their own transgender feelings to me. Authors, magazine editors, and musicians all messaged me praising my work.

[edooo]

Hi everyone:


I just don’t understand what aspect of pushing one’s penis back into a vagina makes someone more woman than the other person who doesn’t want to do the surgery.

Dee

That question has been present in my mind for years now. But I think you shouldnt upset your self too much about that, like you said stay to the forums where you're not judged.

They are probably jealous, maybe because more and more TS realize that they dont need to have the SRS to feel completly like a women, and also the "man market" for ts with a dick is far bigger then for old ts (im assuming on those kind of forums there are mostly older like 30+) with a man made ugly pussy, so they regret maybe the srs and condemn pre-ops, lol, just a guess =)

[maggiegee]

Dee, you have raised many points.

As I am on the job I'm unable to address each one individually at the moment.

I have been to susan.org, but haven't been there in quite a while so I can
not attest to the tenor of the comments made there.

However I am very aware of the caste system that exists within the
transcommunity:



As long as I've had tg's as friends and met many all over the world, this hierachy has always existed

this hierarchy persists amongst some transgenders. This is one of the underlying reasons that it's been such a long, hard row to hoe for transgenders to attain parity

And while some post ops may look down on the pre / non op, there are many
in the transcommunity, both male and female, who look down upon the post
op, as evidenced by this statement, to which as a very happy with my
surgical results and otherwise, middle-aged post op woman, I must admit I
take umbrage:

They are probably jealous, maybe because more and more TS realize that they dont need to have the SRS to feel completly like a women, and also the "man market" for ts with a dick is far bigger then for old ts (im assuming on those kind of forums there are mostly older like 30+) with a man made ugly pussy, so they regret maybe the srs and condemn pre-ops, lol, just a guess =)

Thus in an effort to respond at this time I will proffer a previous post, I think
that it is apropos here:


"Ladies and Gentlemen, thank you for being here today.
I shall be extremely brief with our State Of The Dis-union
address for the transcommunity";

Look at that bitch she think she cute.

The pre op thinks the non op is playing at being
a women and they both dislike the post op cause
she think she the shit.

The older girls don't like the young girls
The young girls don't like the older girls

The celibate girls don't understand the sisters who
sells a bit.

The Latina doesn't like the Asian who doesn't like the
Black girl and all of them hate on the White girls.

And society in general ain't feeling none of them till
its time to get their freak on or are in need of amusement
on Maury or Springer.

Thank you again for your time.

Hatorade will be served in the rear.

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l2/magi43/hatorade55.jpg

[maggiegee]

Perhaps the most ridiculous post op transsexuals are those who log onto a trans message board everyday telling people they don’t feel trans anymore. Well, duh, why the hell are you still here then?



http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l2/magi43/latepass.jpg

I apologize for joining the thread late, I was giving it a cursory perusal
when the point above caught myt attention.

I will admit that I have been away from the 'community' for many years.
It's divisiveness, infighting and loss of many loved ones were my
primary reasons.

Now that there is the push for transrights, I have returned. Not
because I am seeking additional protections for myself, because
for the most part I am fine, I have assimilated into the
mainstream.

But rather, I like to think that I am a small part of bringing
justice and equality to a group from whom it has so long been
witheld.

Yet many of the same forces that drove me away many decades ago,
both from the inside and outside of the community still exist.

But to sum it up, and address this point:



Perhaps the most ridiculous post op transsexuals are those who log onto a trans message board everyday telling people they don’t feel trans anymore. Well, duh, why the hell are you still here then?




I would have to say I identify and commiserate much more firmly
with natal females and their issues.

And while I can not, and will not disown my trans-past, perhaps
it is as Thomas Wolfe has said "You can never go home again".

And sometimes we must question if we should.

[Ecstatic]

As I am on the job I'm unable to address each one individually at the moment.
Humorous aside: Maggie, did you know that, in British slang, "on the job" means having sex? :)

One myth I would love to dispell is the myth of the "man made ugly pussy" as edoo put it. This is as much as slur as any of the other mudslinging we've been discussing, and a misconception as the results of vaginoplasty vary from individual to individual and particularly from surgeon to surgeon. Knowing two post-op women well, and one quite intimately, I know that the results can be every bit as pleasing as a natural pussy. Yes, some surgeons do better work than others; the woman I know *very well* had to have her surgery corrected because she was not happy with her initial results (her final surgery was by Dr Suporn in Thailand, one of the world's leading surgeons).

[maggiegee]

Humorous aside: Maggie, did you know that, in British slang, "on the job" means having sex? :)

One myth I would love to dispell is the myth of the "man made ugly pussy" as edoo put it. This is as much as slur as any of the other mudslinging we've been discussing, and a misconception as the results of vaginoplasty vary from individual to individual and particularly from surgeon to surgeon. Knowing two post-op women well, and one quite intimately, I know that the results can be every bit as pleasing as a natural pussy. Yes, some surgeons do better work than others; the woman I know *very well* had to have her surgery corrected because she was not happy with her initial results (her final surgery was by Dr Suporn in Thailand, one of the world's leading surgeons).

Didn't kow that one, but did know this one:

on the game Phrs. Working as a prostitute. [Mid 1900s]

On to serious matters, I will share with any girl that is contemplating having
SRS, that she can pack her bags out of trannville once she has had her
surgery, because the vast majority of men that are into transwomen are
seeking ones with penises.

And while this may sound disheartening, the good news is that there will be
many men who weren't intereted in you when you had a penis, but may now
be open to a relationship with you.

But having an SRS just to get a man is a lousy reason, just like transitioning
just to get a man. You should have SRS, or transition because you know it
is right for you.

Having a vagina will not guarantee a mate for you, don't believe me, ask any
of the natal females you know.


edoo][/b]
and also the "man market" for ts with a dick is far bigger then for old ts (im assuming on those kind of forums there are mostly older like 30+) with a man made ugly pussy, so they regret maybe the srs and condemn pre-ops, lol, just a guess =)

And finally, please go to the best surgeon that you can afford. Feel free to
PM me if you desire a recommendation.

But please trust me a full time transwoman of 33 years, a post op woman for
11 of those years, that your surgical results will be just fine.

Heed the advice of tens of thousands of women who have walked this walk
before you.

Seanchai, Ecstatic, and a few other can attest to this as well.

Trust that over the words of someone who gets their information
secondhand from porn sites.

[Wondergirl]

From maggiegee:


"And while some post ops may look down on the pre / non op, there are many
in the transcommunity, both male and female, who look down upon the post
op, as evidenced by this statement, to which as a very happy with my
surgical results and otherwise, middle-aged post op woman, I must admit I
umbrage."


Hi, how are you?

Obviously, discrimination can go both way. I never suggested that a pre op or non op can’t discriminate a post op.

However, let’s look at this from the position of power.

Are pre op transsexuals or non op transsexuals more oppressed than post op?

I would say so. If you are a post op, you do not require as much approval from the trans community, since you can already integrate to the mainstream society. But coming from the position of power and legality and formality, it is much more oppressive for a post op person who obviously has a higher social , legal and probably economic status to stigmatize those who are not post op and live in marginalization.

This is the difference, and I am absolutely sure that many post op women can live wonderfully and have a very real looking vagina,, I have never said otherwise and I will never say otherwise.

I am sorry if this debate has turned into about the authenticity of a neo vagina or the dating chances and romantic life of a post op woman compared to a pre op woman- I don’t care about that. I am talking about who gets to control the discourse of this community and who gets the order to identify in certain way that will be politically correct for the high and mighty trans elitists.

Let’s take a real hard look at what kind of transsexuals get elected into offices or get good jobs, they are most likely the one who had SRS because SRS is suppose to legitimizes one’s gender identity, right? Because if you don’t go under the knife, how committed are you really in being a girl? And this is the legal and social discourse that we live under and yeah, I am going to challenge those who reproduce and reinforce this type of discourse through oppressing those who don’t fall under those expectations.

[Mandy M]

I think people are powerless to change the things that suck all around them so they create on-line hierarchies that are just absurd. Who cares what some crank says on some message board? How do they represent the trans-community?

Human nature aside, internet culture is vapid and mean-spirited. Across the board people make very little effort to build one another up, and try to no end to make a name for themselves. Who cares?

I spend much more time with non-trans women, than I do with trans-women though, so I don't often care what other trans-women think about me, pre or post op. I mean, I want people to like me, but ultimately other peoples insecurities are other peoples insecurities and I have enough problems of my own. I'm just happy that I pass, happy to have love in my life and good health, and I wish the same for everyone.

[maggiegee]

Dee great response, well thought out, and articulated.

I just got in, had a rough day will respond on the morrow.

And I'll try not to write a book.:o

[Bluejay]

I think that this is an interesting debate and would like to add my personal perspective.

I know a cross section of the Transgendar community in London, from Pornstars to Weekend Crossdressers with all I treat them and think of them in the same way - as People and with Respect.

I don't deny that others within the community may hold differant views on a persons worth,however I feel privilaged to be accepted and trusted.

A persons worth in my opinion is based on their words and actions not on their physical appearence seen or not seen.

The Acceptance of Differance is and will always be the hardest part of the Human Condition to overcome.

This is not exculsive to the Transgendar community,as it has it's roots in the Class system that has prevailed in the world for many centuries.

[victoriajaye]

I've always thought its about people and not their parts...ifsumone is nice, they're nice...if they're a jack-ass well....

[StephyStar]

I'm a member of the site in question and I don't think they are trying to ostrasize anyone with their rhetoric. What they have is a site geared towards a niche audience. For the most part, the members are older and more conservative than the members of this forum and other forums. From my personal experience, they don't want the site to become an emporium for the uninformed or for pornographers.

To put it simply, the majority of members there feel that transition is psychological. In other words, I have certain incongruencies between my mental and physical make up. What must I do to ensure that the two line up? They understand that there are many thrill seekers out there who would love to exploit their condition and they seek to insulate their forum as best as posisble. Sometimes skeptisim is the best insulator.

Do I fit in totally there? Not at all, but there is a part of me that feels comfartable there. I do feel that this forum provides the best balance and mix of the three trans-related forums I am aware of. I just wish we had more members and that I had more time for more in depth discussions.

[kalina]

I'm a member of the site in question and I don't think they are trying to ostrasize anyone with their rhetoric. What they have is a site geared towards a niche audience. For the most part, the members are older and more conservative than the members of this forum and other forums. From my personal experience, they don't want the site to become an emporium for the uninformed or for pornographers.

To put it simply, the majority of members there feel that transition is psychological. In other words, I have certain incongruencies between my mental and physical make up. What must I do to ensure that the two line up? They understand that there are many thrill seekers out there who would love to exploit their condition and they seek to insulate their forum as best as posisble. Sometimes skeptisim is the best insulator.

Do I fit in totally there? Not at all, but there is a part of me that feels comfartable there. I do feel that this forum provides the best balance and mix of the three trans-related forums I am aware of. I just wish we had more members and that I had more time for more in depth discussions.

Very well put, esp the second paragraph. I believe the group is actually acting a lot like the TS support groups that meet within the monthly transgender support group meetings out there (e.g. Renaissance in King of Prussia, PA). The majority of these TS support group people have made no strides towards their transition; in fact, a lot of them are married with children and they're trying to work out their issues of being born in the wrong body. What kills me is every time I try to enter their group, they tell me to buzz off because I've had a rep for being on the Internet since 94 with my web site, transvamp.com, (actually since 86 if you count "talk" on UNIX). They've labelled me as a thrill seeker just because I love posting pictures of myself for all to see. If they actually learned how to read, they'd actually see a lot of useful stuff for TSs on my site. But I gave up on those people long ago. I enjoy living my life the way I want to live it and I'm not afraid to go to places and document everything with photographs. Those people are just stuck in their closet worlds, it seems.

[whatsupwithat]

"...show a little too much ..." no, not at all :-) I digress.


In my opinion, each person is different and each person knows how far they need to transition to be able to live their life fully and comfortably. For others, to insist on surgery or otherwise, for inclusion, is sad, bitter and dangerous.

seanchai

that was really beautiful to read and very true. thanks, sean.

i was recently verbally attacked by a postop for being attracted to and dating a preop. i was called every derogatory name in the book. apparently there was some deeper issues going on with this person...and i think they emanate from the same place you spoke of.

[whatsupwithat]

For the most part, the members are older and more conservative than the members of this forum and other forums.

i do not know the forum, but i do know the demographic you speak of. it's very isolated and when you have a small community like that, it breeds mistrust and misunderstanding...and, ultimately, discord in the larger community.

you know, all i want in my lifetime is for us to recognize we are all in this together - pre, post, black, white, asian, hispanic, male, female, trans. that's all i want, for us to realize we are, in a sense, a family. we will not move forward until we embrace and accept each other.

[victoriajaye]

interesting thread....as for the "heirarchy" deal. I'm not much for it. Anrachy mebbe. but heirarchy not so much. When i hear of discrimination i just remember these three little words... "People are dumb"

[StephyStar]

interesting thread....as for the "heirarchy" deal. I'm not much for it. Anrachy mebbe. but heirarchy not so much. When i hear of discrimination i just remember these three little words... "People are dumb"


Or "People are People"...

[kalina]

Everyone, VJ is one of the coolest girls you'll ever meet!