The Death of Reason.

[seanchai]

Today we mourn the passing of an old friend - Common Sense - who has been
with us for many years. No one knows for sure how old he was since his
birth records were long ago lost in bureaucratic red tape. He will be
remembered as having cultivated such valuable lessons as knowing when to
come out of the rain, why the early bird gets the worm, life isn't always
fair, and maybe it was my fault.

Common Sense lived by simple, sound financial policies (don't spend more
than you earn) and reliable parenting strategies (adults, not children, are
in charge).

His health began to deteriorate rapidly when well intentioned but
overbearing regulations were set in place.

Reports of a six year old boy charged with sexual harassment for kissing a
classmate, teens suspended from school using mouthwash after lunch, and a
teacher fired for reprimanding an unruly student, only worsened his
condition.
Common Sense lost ground when parents attacked teachers for doing the job
they themselves failed to do in disciplining their unruly children.
It declined even further when schools were required to get parental consent
to administer Paracetamol, sun lotion, or a sticky plaster to a student -
but, could not inform the parents when a student became pregnant and wanted
to have an abortion.

Common Sense lost the will to live as the Ten Commandments became
contraband, churches became businesses and criminals received better
treatment than their victims.

Common Sense took a beating when you couldn't defend yourself from a
burglar in you own home and the burglar could sue you for assault.

Common Sense finally gave up the will to live after a woman failed to
realise that a steaming cup of coffee was hot. She spilled a little in her
lap and was promptly awarded a huge settlement.

Common Sense was preceded in his death by his parents, Truth and Trust, his
wife Discretion, his daughter Responsibility, and his son, Reason.

He is survived by three stepbrothers; I Know My Rights, Someone Else is to
Blame, and I'm a Victim.

Not many attended his funeral because so few realised he was gone.
If you still remember him, pass this on.
If not, join the majority and do nothing.

[Ecstatic]

The wake was held on a Sunday afternoon but there were very few in attendance.

[kramtime]

Well, Well said, my friend.

[Quinn]

Yes, well said indeed.

-Quinn

[BeardedOne]

I think I attended the funeral/memorial service.

Often. :?

[flombago]

But it's nice to see that we're all so reasonable here and know better. A coterie of cognoscenti. From this Oasis of Reason, may a new Common Sense germinate and spread to all the world. And a new Age of Reason will dawn.

[robin]

I was at the funeral and nobody showed up.

[BrendaQG]

It is better to rely on emotion for most things. Too much reason will make you a robot. Like me.

[greenkb]

why is it, that the good always die so young. Oh yeah, anyone got any idea where I can send some flowers?

[Jamie French]

Common sense is overrated - it's common sense in African countries that water doesn't freeze. Plus, the ten comandments? What the hell does a subjective religious artifact have to do with common sense?

[Disqplay]

Well let see if you look at the ten commandments you would realize that they are all based in Common Sense. So it must be true that common sense died recently if you had to ask that question.

Senchai the one thing that you forgot to mention that did Common Sense in was when Children could have there parents arrested because they did not like the punishment they recieved for doing things they were told not to do in the first place.

[Jamie French]

To disqplay: You'll soon see I never speak out of turn or with an uninformed, ill concieved opinion. Your inference is simply the side effect one would expect to find when faced with an argument whos chief charactoristic is the glaring absence of critical thought.
This list is a little 'Jewy' with the extra commandment and all, but it serves to illustrate my point that not one of these commandments has anything to do with common sense.

1. You shall have no other gods before Me. (A belief in any god is subjective and adhering to this commandment bears no relevance to the properties of sensibility)

2. You shall not make for yourself an idol... (Another arbitrary dictation for which 'sense' has no bearing.)

3. You shall not make wrongful use of the name of the Lord your God... (I'll give you a dollar if you can give me a sensible reason why this commandment would apply to your argument in the least.)

4. Remember the Sabbath day, and keep it holy... (it may very well be sensible to know when the weekend starts... that's when the good bands play, I'll give you this one on a technicality)

5. Honor your father and your mother... (Only if your parents earned your respect. Some folks grow up with kid touchers and alcoholics who deserve no respect whatsoever regardless of their relation)

6. You shall not murder. (this is not sensible but rather a subjective moral prerogative.)

7 You shall not commit adultery. ( another subject moral prerogative... some marriages thrive be cause of mutually agreed upon adultery)

8. You shall not steal. (the pattern persists... this is not sensible, only agreeable.)

9. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. (Ibid...)

10 You shall not covet your neighbor's house. (To covet is the very foundation of capitalism, a free and open market, we all want to, and in fact are encouraged to 'one up' the Joneses. As an American I know this first hand - it wouldn't be sensible of me to think otherwise lest I find myself promoting socialism in a country whose economic mechanisms aren't designed for communal exchange.)

11. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife (see above)

I sincerely hope you've enjoyed your new found enlightenment ( at no charge!) and that you use your new knowledge to help insure that you and those you care about have a wonderful day. J.

[uriah]

Seanchai you just went up a few notches in my book...I am in total agreement with that thought...and as for the ten commandments...yep, Jewy and only there to point out that we are not perfect...read the rest of the book and you discover that it's all about grace and mercy...

[seanchai]

Seanchai you just went up a few notches in my book...I am in total agreement with that thought...and as for the ten commandments...yep, Jewy and only there to point out that we are not perfect...read the rest of the book and you discover that it's all about grace and mercy...

Erm, you've just dropped about another 10 in mine.
Sad.
seanchai

[uriah]

Um, I guess people shouldn't complement you cause you think your better then them or something? I guess I should be pretty happy we aren't friends on a personal level or I'd really be bummed out...

[Jamie French]

I don't get it, does uriah think seanchai came up with my 'ten comandments' reply? Either way, I'm not clear as to what he agrees or disagrees with in the post... I also think he missed the boat when when I pointed out that the list of commandments I used was "jewy" - it was meant as humour and as a disclaimer to let everyone know the reason 11 comandments where sited in my post rather than 10... (The hebrew version of the commandments actually numbers: 613 - 10 of which are included in the Decalogue.) I'd like someone to clear this up, it's not fair to other members when a post is wrongly credited, seanchai should not have to defend, explain, or give any other opinion about my text unless he deems it nessesary...

[uriah]

It’s all good Jamie I thought your original post humorous and enjoyed it…I know from experience though that there are those who would look at this without the knowledge of the bible that would take that as true, as giftedly as you wrote it, without seeing the other side of it…It’s not that I’m against humor or against beliefs…On the contrary, I’m all for it and all for anything that represents humor or sarcastic comments besides maybe there should be 11 commandments instead of 10…hahaha that would at least clear up some of the generalizations especially the 10th…Ya know though I am for the idea that we aren’t perfect and that is why I see the ten commandments as a broad commitment to everyone…If you think about it if we actually clinged to those then perhaps we’d not see incidents like Columbine and such because people held to a higher standard and fear or respect of was beyond their own selves which is what this thread originally dignified…As for Seanchai’s post I was merely saying the original was a good one and I dug it…I didn’t know I was wrong for doing so? I guess everyone else that agreed is as well??? I don’t think so but ok???

[uriah]

Oooops...I misspelled your name...sorry! That's twice now darn it!

[Jamie French]

Ok, well just to completely clear things up, several points must be made. 1. This thread addresses the proposition that common sense has died, though the subject line states, "The death of reason". These are two ideas that are mutually exclusive. I don't think reason/ logic/ analytical thought have anything to do with common sense. 2. Although I should have addressed this in my original post I decided to comment on the religious angle, (the 10 commandments) which was used as an argument in the seanchai's initial post. I thought it was much more important to address the presumed moral argument used to defend common sense than it was to attack the syntax of the claim. In summation I am A. Opposed to the claim that commomn sense is dead or even a valid catalyst for behavioral patterns. B. I am an athiest who loves to point out the lazy thinking inherent in religious argument at any given opportunity. I used a very specific part of the original post as a catalyst to do just that. Thanks, J.

[uriah]

I have to disagree on the notion that reason, logic, and analytical thought don’t have anything to do with common sense simply because if we don’t have those things then we’d all be so random that there wouldn’t be common sense…yea, so common sense has died I guess???My original reason for posting on this thread…but tell me what line of thought tells you to stop at a red light or drive on the right side of the road (if your American) is it logical to say that if you don’t your odds of getting into a wreck are higher than those who do? So yea…I don’t see that logic doesn’t fit with common sense and as for the religious angle it’s fine by me…I adore all inquires, comments and beliefs as I stated earlier and really don’t care if you’re a Atheist or Agnostic or Buddhist or Christian I just like to hear why? I’m like that…I am just always looking to understand why someone believes what they believe because I am always in search of truth…It’s not to discredit them…Yea, I can probably give an equally persuasive argument or more as to why it may not be correct if it’s not but never the less it’s not my place to tell someone they are religiously challenged and I for one see that this forum tends to dwell on the leftist side of the spectrum…I am just offering another side to a coin that everyone knows exists…I think it cool to see both sides to every story before we adopt an opinion as our own which is why I was quick to post on this thread just incase someone adopted your views as their own without knowledge of something else potentionaly…I tell you in truth it was not to point you out or make fun…I really do enjoy your sense of humor and that was all that I said. No harsh feelings at all ok…

[Jamie French]

Your example about traffic safety is also not an example of common sense. The reason we don't run read lights, or drive on the left hand side of the road is because that's what we are taught in drivers ed or the DMV pamphlets... The colors as well as the directions attributed to them are arbitrary.. it was the design of an individual and a small commity that dictated the actions we are to take when faced with a traffic signal as well as the side of the road on which we commute. It is not the sense of the commwealth which dictates our reactions to a traffic signal. Please don't fool yourself into believing that there is a mystical pool of knowledge attributed to the worlds population which gives us the ability to decipher right from wrong or good from bad... something called, "common sense". We all only follow the rules, laws and legislations that keep us out of harms way or out of prison. Other than that we all ARE random in our experiences and actions. Common sense didn't die, it simply never existed. Average intelligence gave a name to a series of circumstances, thought process and events it did not fully understand, of course this name is: Common Sense.

[uriah]

I once again have to disagree...somewhere along the line a teacher taught a student the ablitly to understand thier teachings and therefore the student required an intelect and understood the LOGIC behind his teachings to have REASON to identify why he must stop at a red light and drive on the right side of the road whereby he is safe to presume his course instead of becomming road kill which is common sense...Sorry, but I'm wondering why we are arguing about this???

[Jamie French]

Wrong again. You capitilized logic and reason as if they were the same thing as comon sense... when automobiles first hit the streets people were running into eachother left and right, there was no common sense to dictate how to drive safely. It took an act of congress to instate traffic laws. You may say, "well how did we know to instate traffic laws unless common sense told us to do so?" Survival instinct. Their is no common sensabilty we all share, but aside from masochists, we do share a primal instinct to survive and maintain our safety in order to insure the propogation of our species. Do not confuse logic with common sense. Logic is the product of minds capable of infering cause and effect. Common sense is a mystical pool of knowledge we are all expected to be able to draw from when the circumstances present themselves. If you could teach understanding then we would all be mathematicians, chemists, and medical practitioners. Not to worry, without stupid people we would have to prepare our own value meals.

[uriah]

Jmaie, (I got it right this time)

I do so enjoy your posts...I think you are probably one of the most intellegent, well spoken girls I've ever run accross yet as to the topic on common sense I seem to see your own theories diminish your argument. After all if all the cars are running into one another and someone in congress says it's LOGICAL for us to adopt a safe highway standard so that cars aren't running into one another then perhapes it is within REASON to believe his name was COMMON...Thank God he had some sense already...I wonder if that was how Common Sense came to be acknowledged as common sense in our day???And do you really believe that survival instict isn't common sense???

[Jamie French]

You haven't been paying close enough attention to my posts. If it was an individual who decided we needed traffic laws then it would be considered individual sense, not common sense - which implies a mass plurality. The point is moot anyway, traffic laws where a decision based on logical inference not bestowed upon man by a pre-ordained universal truth. To address the former question in your latest response. Survival instinct is an instinct as previously stated. It is inherent in our biology and physiological makeup. It not not the result of sense, logic, or rationale, common or otherwise.

[seanchai]

Uriah, I just can't have respect for you based on what you write here. It is as personal as it can get based on a board and my personal dislikes do come into it. You stated something that has been sticking in my craw all week.
Back to your other post where you tried to say that the attack on 9/11 was related to the unprovoked US attack on Iraq. When you realised it wasn't and that you were spouting absolute crap you had to leave conversation with:
"The recompressions of that would mean that those who died in this war did it for absolutely nada including my friends so excuse me for giving a damn…"

Despite the fact that there is no such word as "recompressions" so I assume you mean "repercussion", you're actually advocating death and war so your friends who died, didn't die in vain? So more might die.
Sorry to break to you, Kermit but as tragic as it is, as heartbreaking as those bodies being sent home and those young lives lost in Iraq ... they died for nothing more than Imperialism, big business anf ego. It sucks and the sooner you wake up and realise that, then the sooner you can educate yourself and others around you on the true horrors going on.

Taking it a little further, you actually try to placate yourself with me with your preaching? Fuck man, look at what you're saying - in one post preaching that war and death is justified and in another the Ten Commandments? You can't have it both ways. You make a choice.

The Death of Reason - the Ten Commandments are REASONABLE - which is what I think Jamie was saying. They're not some superstitious hokey-pokey based on a history book, they're a reasonable code on how to live your life which has been used for 1000's of years. There is nothing Christian about the Ten Commandments, only reason.

The continued death of reason is when abortion is illegal in most states, cell stem research outlawed, intelligent design taught in schools (and science taught as an interpretation), churches not needed to pay taxes.... this is the death of reason.

Reading and memorising a book is not intelligence, it's memory. Understanding a doctrine because it's drummed into your life to replace something that is missing is not intelligent, it's dangerous.

seanchai

[uriah]

Ahhhh, you are absolutly correct if it were an individual then he'd be saying let no one wreck my car while everyone is running into eachother and him...How could he avoid it? So that man had enough swagger to sway an entire congress who speaks upon behalf of the entire population (a commonality) to intice a few logical roadside rules that only effect him??? let no man boast such a thing hahaha...Ok so this is my last post on this topic so look...I don't really care if you call it ugabuga, whychitacumbotta or survival instinct...whatever you pronounce it...it is common sense that if you or I am faced with disaster expecially life threatening that we'll do whatever to survive that situation...I don't know how anyone can argue with that???Honestly! So before we continue to go on and on and on without either party gainning ground lets just say you were a great oponnent in this debate and I thoroughly enjoyed discussing this topic with you because you are wonderfully intelligent, well manored, articulate and all around just fun to talk to...Take care jmaie...Good talking to you.

[uriah]

And I'm a bit tippsy right now watching the games brada so I'll get back to you sooner than later on your rousts...But in all seriousness...Bro...I was tellin ya your post was cool and I don't hold a grudge ever and I know some do so I can't exactly hold that against ya but I have my reasons for believing the things that make you go hmmm even if they're incorrect....Ok Seanchai ttyl...

[Jamie French]

Dictionary.com: Tautology.

[uriah]

Sorry this took so long to get to ya…

Seanchai,

I don’t really care as for your personal tastes neither…after all what I cited was as personal to me as was to you so we are at a draw …no sense bringing up personal flavors for one another which is all that we have done thus far…

As for my original garble who gives a crap…It’s a personal opinion of which you have one of your own so seriously who cares…I was so drunk the night I wrote that that it was all over the place anyway…In any case, I only feel that it’s impossible to have the government admit they’re wrong because if they did then all that money spent and all the lives as well are in vain (which they’d never admit if true) so yea…It’s not gonna happen so this argument is simply fruitless so why do you continue to pursue it? Yes it was emotional for me…after all I had friends that ended up in body bags and then those who didn’t that are on nerupeletics to stop the nerves from messing them up (which isn’t working)…so yea…I got emotional…wouldn’t you if you saw that and they told you that it’s for the greater good? How would you tell them it’s not? You really think you’d be their friends if you did? As for my spelling, dude…C’mon did you run outta things to roust me on? Everyone here knows I can’t spell for crap already…

Yea, I know more or as much as you most likely having friends died and maimed in this war and seeing the events themselves regurgitated back to me the true horrors that are going on so what is your point in that again?

Now let’s get to the beef of what your arguing…It’s no surprise that I lean on some right winged values…would it be a surprise if I leaned on some left to you? After all I have been dating a transsexual for over 6 months now…How does that fit with your approach of right winged, bible bashing views of me? Now, did it occur to you that I most likely know much more about the bible than you do when you site the ten commandments with the justification of war…I can only assume you are referring to THOU SHALL NOT KILL…and hence let’s look at that from a biblical point of view shall we? I’ll cite Jesus saying to the disciples, “If you don’t own a sword get a sword”. Hmmmm… (Now if M16’s and AK47’s where invented in that day…You think He’d a said sword still?)And I’ll also cite Paul who said, “I’d expect you’d allow that as if someone struck you across the face”. (A sarcastic comment when you look at the context) All new testament for ya brada …Now I’m not saying we should just go to war about anything. I’m opposed to violence but if you see the justification for doing so even if it’s obscure to you and I then well, it’s been happening for years and years and so what do you do about it? It’s not like you can stop it? But if and when it happens do we demoralize all those who have to deal with the loss of family or limbs??? That sucks…I’d hate to be the one to do it to them…So if I have to agree with some of the arguments for us going to war because it was gonna happen then why should I protest it…I’d rather support my home and use they’re arguments to do so if I must, besides unless you are a part of some super secretive terrorist organization such as alkeda (and I use 9/11 as I did previously to simplify that any terrorist organization is wrong due to those events) how the hell do you know for sure they weren’t ever harbored in Iraq before we attacked them? (or another terrorist organization I seriously doubt you are some high ranking alkeda or terrorist organization member official privy to that) …It’s a personal opinion I have…terrorism needs to stop all together and if you have to fight it then you do…You have your own opinions and…equally, there just opinions…besides if you take France and see that they decided to remain neutral and then see them get attacked by terrorists it’s obvious that they just don’t care that your neutral…So I think I’ll just cite Paul once again and say I think you’d take that as if someone struck you across the face…

Now lets get to the death of reason where once again you cited the ten commandments as reasonable…Ummm…So did I, if you look at the posts I made??? I was saying that it was lame that people took for granted those wonderful words and if they clung to them then perhaps we wouldn’t see the bullshit we see in our day and age yada, yada, yada…how did we differ on that???

Now here is really where you turn liberal and are looking for a rebuttal…I’ll go ahead and give ya one…Abortion…I have a very good friend that had one when she was 17 and that still haunts that girl at age 31 and that sucks! Pro-life…Why the double standard when someone kills a pregnant mother it’s double homicide yet abortion is not??? I personally don’t vote on the issue because I just don’t. I am not a woman so I can’t say with absolute certainty that it is right or wrong…Yes…My opinion is that we should teach proper birth control called keep your damn legs shut until your capable of supporting a child…And yea…If your capable of having sex I think then a child should not be an issue because one of the things which occur in it’s aftermath is pregnancy in some cases…I’m pretty grateful my Mother decided not to abort me are you grateful yours did the same? Just because you never got to meet the infant that could have been but was aborted doesn’t mean it makes it right or wrong…But who knows? Maybe they would have been your best friend? Wife? And a better match than what you have currently? Anything’s possible? In addition the states that have looser gun control such as Arizona have a lower crime rate because you never know who’s pack’n and from what I hear Wisconsin voted on or is voting on that same law of concealed carry and it was supported by the sheriffs office so there must be a reason for it so I guess it just may be a pro-life choice to do so. Furthermore, my mother is a diabetic who’s had to undergo both a kidney and pancreas transplant not to mention numerous eye surgeries. My brother is an epileptic with severe grandmal seizures so stem cell research appeals to me in a much higher regard than it does most people so c’mon with that I’m right winged already and don’t see that as unreasonable…Now, as for the issue of science are you serious? 1st of all…Science can provide proof of a higher power. Look at the alternative macro-evolution ( I thought it was called the theory of evolution…key word theory)…They are both just faiths! You must believe in one or the other cause somehow you came to be and if it wasn’t for a higher power than somehow as provided in macro-evolution. When you look at the evidences once again I simply say it would take more faith to believe in macro-evolution rather than creation? Especially when you apply a scientific law such as the 2nd law of thermodynamics and then think that the big bang is scientific…Can anyone please tell me when 0 X 0 or 0 + 0 ever equaled anything but goose egg? Now that’s just the tip of the iceberg and I can go on and on about this subject but I don’t think my fingers could take it sooooo…why, it’s not being taught in public schools is an outrage if they teach one faith then teach the other…I’m not against either one they both have interesting views but why be so narrow minded and not allow it taught is a question that I’d ask you? As for taxes and the church…I’m grateful they at least get away with that much… they’ve taken alot away from them…I’m surprised that as a liberal you don’t see that the government stripping away freedoms enjoyed as dangerous? I know I’m not for the patriot act and such? Why do I want the government taking away more already? Now that is the death of reason…

Now, I don’t memorize books and take them as truth…I take things with a grain of salt because there are all kinds of views out there and I appreciate peoples beliefs when they have evidence to back them up…If I didn’t see the evidence in my beliefs I wouldn’t posses them…And ya know sometimes a good argument sways me from my beliefs into thinking there are some pretty grey area’s or perhaps I’m not right about my past beliefs…When it’s dangerous is when that doesn’t happen…Which are you?

In any case, I am just saying there are always equal views on every side of the argument and spectrum. Since taking ownership of this board this has become a place of more and more controversial subjects and so I’ll personally thank you for making it so…But if you are gonna display one side of the argument or allow it displayed and then get pissed off when there is an opposition then I guess you really shouldn’t allow it to be said in the first place…anything but that would be vindictive of a double standard…I’m sure you don’t want to be viewed as a hypocrite now do you?

[seanchai]

Your an idiot and you don't deserve the truth as you are not open minded enough to seek if for yourself.
Arguing against someone with blind faith and unashamed one-sideness is like a broken pencil, pointless.

I'll say this - I respect you for the fact that you don't sit on the fence, you take your sites and aren't afraid to stand for what you believe in - but woefully, your the cause of the hate, the bigotry, the mysogeny and the lack of freedom that America is currently going through.

Go and live abroad and see how the rest of the world sees you and see how much disservice you are doing to the American people. Then and only then, I pray to all that is good, may you then realise how idiotic you are and how little you know about the rest of the world, about people and about life.
You advocate murder yet you preach peace. If you were born a Muslim - without a doubt you would be a member of al-Quaida (come on man, how hard is it? Go to dictionary.com like I did). If you were a Catholic you'd be supporting the IRA and if you were a right-wing Concervative American you'd be practising other forms of terrorism.

I don't need an answer to this - apart from ONE QUESTION. What terrorism was committed against France since they decided not to go to war?

seanchai

[Jamie French]

In seanchai's defense: Seanchai has given you every opportunity to speak your piece and has not denied you one single post. This is an open forum but you must keep in mind that it is privately owned. Although seanchai allows your veiw points to be read on this forum he has no obligation to do so... I advise you mind your P's and Q's because we are all guests here and can have our privillages revoked on a whim. J. (The Boy Scouts do not have to tollerate gays and seanchai does not have to tolerate bible nuts.)

[uriah]

Seanchi has giving me every opportunity to speak my mind as he as also spoken his own. I can’t accuse him of not allowing that and so I won’t. But as you said it is an open forum and therefore the definition of open requires that both sides to an argument allowed viewed and therefore an obligation is implied…

I didn’t initiate this argument originally …I am for equality across the board. This is evident in the fact that I have advocated across threads ONLY after they were originally posted in opposition…I NEVER started a single thread that had to do with a political, moral or religious agenda…Look at the threads themselves for what I said which advocated for the right for someone to choose their gender (as probably what caused this original spark since the question of who can believe the bible was authentic arose by seanchai yet I only answered the call), the right to view faiths equally (which is really just the right to choose which is best for you when they’re taught in school also by Seanchai on this thread where I once again answered the call) the right to life (once again in Seanchai’s post following Brenda’s thread which I offered a view) Keep in mind I also said I don’t vote on it cause I’m not a woman and therefore can’t be 100% for sure so I am giving ground. And, also in Brenda’s thread about voting which I bowed out of and was enticed back into. I have always made my posts as open-minded as I thought possible and have done so with comments such as what if I’m wrong? They are just opinions as you have opinions too, All in all I never started any threads or viewpoints but only commented on them…Mostly on Seanchai’s but others as well so if I’m gonna be to blame for it then please recalibrate your brain cause I was not the original poster of said threads.

I do appreciate Sanchai…For the fact that we are talking beliefs on an open forum and not backing down at all (unfortunately he gives no reason why he believes it but it’s still an opinion)…That means more to me than someone who walks a fence as Seanchai put it and justified in my opinion cause anyone who does look for neutrality is simply enabling another party wither it be for or against what we are standing for in opposition of one another so it is an admirable approach and well credited…

This brings me to Seanchia’s question regarding France…And since the dictionary is so appreciated - here is the definition of terrorism:

The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.

It might fool most when France and the liberal media tries to sugar coat it by calling it hate crimes to ignore what it really is…The fact that in 2005 those crimes against churches, synagogues and those individuals who died or where beaten that would follow the Jewish or Christian beliefs has doubled since 2003 it is evident that those groups just don’t care about neutrality or tolerance of everyone…It’s very definition states that either a person or organized group (here we have Muslim extremists) fire bombing churches, synagogues and intimidating those individuals physically to coerce French society that Jews and Christians are not welcomed in France is obviously ideological and political…Terrorism is and always has been an institution of hate so to call it hate crimes is actually what terrorism is …I for one say terrorism is not at all welcome as is any hatred for one’s doctrine, race or gender and if it gonna affect my family, friends, girlfriend or other loved ones I’d do anything in my power to stop it…The government feels this same way seeing that it exists for the benefit of the people. Since we are at a new era in world politics and the government and most governments operate at a global scale I can understand why the war although I have not had desired for it…Never the less it’s here…I am simply attempting to convey why while supporting my countrymen…and I’d rather support my country because it has givin me so much including the freedom of speech, religion and other such rights that no one should trample…Seanchai’s own comments in saying that my words affected him personally and his decision to lash out against me in defense of his statements and beliefs illustrates my point further.

All too often we look at the resulting action without giving thought to what led to those events and the reasoning behind the current action and if the worlds view is for disgust of us then perhaps they should consider wither or not they would allow themselves to personally get walked over or their family, friends…loved ones and not do something about it? Actually, I think they would since I’m continually having to send faxes and emails to my members of the senate and congress regarding the tightening of immigration to only those with an education or are skilled so they are a valued members of society and not leaching off the government so it’s obvious they appreciate those same rights that I enjoy or they wouldn’t be trying to come here…

As for being born a religious sect I said I don’t follow anyone’s doctrine but I have a personal relationship with God on my own so I don’t identify with any of these organized religions…I wasn’t born and slapped by my doctor on the butt and pronounced a Nondenominational Christian just as any girl here shouldn’t of been slapped on the butt and pronounced girl or guy but rather tgirl or as much as they weren’t pronounced a Muslim, Catholic, Zaoist or anything…yea, you tend to pick up believes that your surrounded by but we have free will…that doesn’t mean those who are brainwashed into thinking they need to blow themselves up did start out that way…I really can’t believe you think all Muslims are members of al-quida or another terrorist sect? I doubt you meant that but the point is think for yourselves…Some do by the way and get their arms chopped off or imprisoned cause they don’t follow the predominant religion of the region which is what I think your saying…which is leading me to my last point…

I’m sick of this argument and now I got two people in this same mess…Seanchai has never givin a single argument as to why his claims are the right ones to follow but acts like every politician out there who just hides behind name calling and slander…his one word arguments are not explained in any detail yet because he uses a few words without backing them up with appropriate explanations and furthermore ridicules me to expect to sway you…then Jmaie follows it up with what she says is a defense of him…yet she calls this an open forum and still finds it within her to suggest that seanchai has the right to evict me whenever he sees fit…well, Jmaie what you are saying is that you are not for equality but rather a dictatorship so I really don’t know if you wanna post things like that if you aren’t fond of being identified with them…or perhaps brainwashed into thinking it’s right…

[Jamie French]

"Jmaie what you are saying is that you are not for equality but rather a dictatorship so I really don’t know if you wanna post things like that if you aren’t fond of being identified with them…or perhaps brainwashed into thinking it’s right…"

Wow, you seem frustrated with the simplicity and correctness of my arguement. According to you I am an advocate of dictatorship because I recognize an individuals right to do as one wishes with thier privately owned possesions? Brain washed? Please elaborate as much as you possibly can (and I know you will) on this point, I'm dying to know who you think 'brainwashed' me and to what possible ends this would be benificial to, well, anyone. I wasn't aware that there was some sinister puppet master employing the use of shemale pornstars as soldiers in a fight for world domination through the clever use of bulletin boards.

[seanchai]

Thanks Uriah for just showing even further how rightwing and blind you are.
You are more concerned about illegal aliens being "educated" despite the fact we need a workforce in low-paid jobs than you are about writing to your senators and having them stop real concerns. Like having a healthcare system, like stopping this war, etc. What a joke! If you were so concerned how about trying to raise the education bar in America? Most of the "illegals" coming over are more educated than most Americans and taking jobs far under their education.

Your commentary on France was ridiculous (so that means that terrorism goes on every day in every city of America?) and obviously you fucked up on making a link between France not joining the US/UK war against Iraq for them getting attacked by terrorists ... it's fairly obvious you were thinking about Spain (who did initially join the war). Pulling some rhetoric from Wikepedia or some website doesn't make it so.

Your country has given you what? Freedom of Speach (America comes I think number 54 in the world on open media), religious rights (at the cost to people who aren't Christian having their rights taken away)?
Again, Uriah - you're a joke who needs to open your eyes to the world around you. Your clueless. Your a moron. Your a hypocrite.

As I stated, if you were born a Muslim you'd be a terrorist at least in mind and speach - as that's what you are calling for against people that don't believe in your way of thinking.

You may not have started the post but you took full advantage of it to preach and try to convert.

Go read a book about the history of the world or go and research really what your country is doing for you?
This isn't a knock against the USA - who is more liberal than most of us realise but it is a knock against the religious right like Uriah who feel that all of us should support a war, ban abortion, believe in creationism and be hypocrits to their religion. Being a Christian and being against for the war should be mutually exclusive.

seanchai

[uriah]

Dude, your twisted…where have I sought to convert??? Only explain the side of the arguments you left out…I said I don’t vote on abortion so what are you saying? I said all faiths should be taught including macro-evolution since it is a faith so what are you saying? I might take offense to your insults if you could show me where I said these are the only views that should be supported but I said I was for equality if you looked at my last post and others…When ever did I say Christianity is the only true religion? It may make the most sense to me out of all of them but I never said anywhere that it’s the only true religion and all can make that boast of their own…so get a clue yourself bra…I never sought to convert but only offer the side you forgot to mention and since you haven’t any rebuttal I guess you must either agree they are good arguments or are just completely out of ammo and therefore hurl insults?…You started the threads themselves or bashed the views that do have solid arguments supporting them before I even posted and since you left them out I just thought I shed a little light on why they exist and why your bashing is funny, so it’s apparent that you need to drop the shovel and get a bull dozer to get the crap out from between your ears when you start spouting off about a preacher…apparently you’re the hero in that category since you began your own preaching crusade and I merely commented on your preaching so get a grip buddy and get over trying to convert me and us already…Funny how you accuse me of it when all you need to do is look in the mirror…

I am well aware that similar acts occur here as elsewhere not nearly on the same scale as it is in France (yes I said France because I was making a point as to neutrality doesn’t mean your not going to be afflicted by terrorism and that is where my last post suggests it is happening and it is)…does that make it right? Was I ever suggesting that it should not be viewed the same? You asked for a definition and you got one…Are you gonna argue with me about the same dictionaries you yourself use when it’s convenient for you? So who’s hypocritical, lol?…And I never advocated for people to take up arms against a religious group! It appears you still believe all Muslims are terrorists or at least in thought? I really didn’t think you meant that in your last post but here you are again stating it ( I feel really bad for any Muslims here)…I know 2 people who preach peace in their faith and if that is two in a small population of Muslims which makes me think there are probably much, much more that preach peace rather than murder and hate. They also preach against terrorism and they consider it synonymies with hatred so the very people your accusing of being terrorists think your definition of terrorism and faith is ass backwards but why don’t you tell us just what terrorism is? Is it a doctrine of hate? Go ahead and enlighten us please or just me since I’m obviously confused and believe fire bombing churches and synagogs by Islamic extremists terrorist acts?

As far as immigration is concerned do you really think I included immigrants in the same category as illegals? C’mon dude…Are you serious? And besides if there weren’t so many illegal aliens here I’d not have to vote on improved health care seeing that they all get a free ride in our health care system on my own and others buck…the government would have an easy time coming up with the funds to improve health care if we did screen for education or skills before we welcomed people into our country and did something about all the illegal aliens that aren’t welcome here. And let it be known Seanchai that I also write my congress on health care buddy boy and all sorts of left winged topics that I am for like nonprivitization of social security and stem cell research so give it a little gas and switch gears in that bull dozer right about now…

I gotta admit though that I don’t know how accurate a low income labor force is needed but I do know this…There is a lot of unemployment, welfare recipients and kids who can legally work while going to school and I can’t remember the last time I saw one working fast food or at a gas station…I know they’d love to be able to find a job and that would certainly not put a drain on the economy or increase taxes…Don’t know about agricultural labor but I’m sure all those brainiacs in society can come up with some sort of automated way to handle it…besides get rid of illegals and you cut out what a couple million mouths or around about? So that would lower the statistic your stifling about further since demand for agricultural product isn’t as high anymore…

What is a drain on the economy is exporting jobs to other countries and I can’t remember the last time I called for tech support and spoke to someone I could understand and I’m an IT Professional so if I have to compete with a foreign skilled worker I’d much rather have him be my neighbor and go through the same interviewing process he does…At least I have a chance then don’t I?

Dude, you can flap your gums all day long about how the Bible and Christianity is against the war but numb nuts you really need to at least read the Bible before you say something like that…Particularly Genesis, Judges, 1st and 2nd Chronicles, 1st and 2nd Kings, Isaiah and other old testament books and count how many times the God of the Bible said to His people to wipe out the ones who were preaching a doctrine of hate towards Him, His people and then attacking them? And then count how many times the people prayed for His help in doing so. (Could it be because a doctrine of hatred for someone and their beliefs is wrong and brings with it destruction? If left unchecked by those who’d tolerate it would continue to spread and engulf every institution?) This kinda reminds me of the same thing we are seeing today so spare me your uneducated and never read interpretation and read it for yourself it’s obvious that hatred isn’t exactly a condoned belief and It’s obvious that the oldest history book of the world (since your so fond of history) agrees and hasn’t changed the face of modern society at all. People still hate Jews and Christians while breathing threats and acting out violence and therefore the war…And it isn’t just America, your country and others are involved too so seriously Bro…What’s your deal? I’ll say it again…It’s obviously not a condoned belief…So once again I’ll ask if the world hates people like me including you then why the hell is your country in this war? You are obviously not a representative of your people yet you try to be one here…And why are some of their own countries in this war? There must be some merit to this war even if I’m missing it…

Oh, and your right Jmaie I am gonna comment on that…In the form of a retraction and apology. I assumed you were including me in the category of bible nuts who wouldn’t allow gays to be allowed in the boy scouts…I would most certainly allow them and of course I’d be retarded not to be for them seeing that my girlfriend belongs to the same subgroup or whatever you call it in the lgbt group and has tons of gay friends…I haven’t even cracked my bible open in years or been to church in years and with both liberal views and right winged views I’m hardly a bible nut none the less I was pretty heated when I saw Seanchai’s post and I thought you were accusing me which you were apparently not so I am guilty of lashing out and I am sorry for the comment…

[Jamie French]

I don't know where your reading comprehension lays, but I thought I made it quite clear, I am FOR the boy scouts banning whoever they wish... it's a PRIVATE association. My example was supposed to serve as a parrallel to seanchai's ownership of this forum. It was my mistake for using an example that contained a buzzword... (gay) I have no soft spot in my heart for any minority, and I don't believe anybody deserves speacial attention, rights or any other such nonsense. I only care for what makes logical sense. One other thing... You'd be wise to try to say as much as nessesary in as few words as possible... your post are an exercise in tedium. Try harder, I know you can do it! J.

[seanchai]

"So once again I’ll ask if the world hates people like me including you then why the hell is your country in this war? You are obviously not a representative of your people yet you try to be one here…And why are some of their own countries in this war? There must be some merit to this war even if I’m missing it…"

Something like 80% of the British public are against the war. Blair joined the American war at the behest of his buddy Bush and failed to listen to the British voting public, something which has cost him dearly in recent election (similar to the recent Senate and Congress votes in the US which was a stance against Bush and the war). Many politicians in his own party fought against going to war and some resigned.
I'm very representative of the British public - furthermore, it seems I'm also representative of the way most sensible thinking Americans are focused.

You could have got this information anywhere and I'd suggest you turn off Fox news and check either CNN or if that is too liberal for you (?) then BBC news on the internet.
The only merit to this war and your friends sadly dying was a vanity trip coupled with big business from the Republican government. There was no other reason. More Iraquis are dying now than when Sadamn was in power, nothing was accomplished.
We were lied to - unfortuantely, unlike most, you're not able to research or look outside your comfort zone to see that we were lied to. You'd rather follow blind faith in the poor leadership as it's easier for you to do that than question your own views and possibly although unlikely, have the guts to change them.

I've read the bible and it's not that I have the problem with (cute fairytale which is applied in the words and not changed much, could be used as a code for life for those unable to think for themselves) - my problem is with Christians who have used it and distorted it for their own racist, or bigoted believes - since early Catholics to the current religious right.

I told you to go to the dictionary to look up the correct spelling of "al-Quaida" not to define "terrorism" which as somebody who lived in London during the IRA bombings, I know quite well what it is (another war caused mis-interpretation of Christianity). Trying to equate racist attacks in France with bombings on a train, airplanes crashing into buildings, etc is ridiculous. Yes it is a form of terrorism but so are bullies in a schoolyard. It makes your point moot - face it son, you fucked up, you un-educated ass got the wrong country.

You don't vote on abortion - so what are your thoughts on it?

You are telling me to read the bible (I have) and get educated (ha - far more than you, bra as I can see both sides). I can't quote it but if you're asking me where you are preaching, see that paragraph - maybe you just don't know it?

Most illegal immigrants become citizens. Your a fucking immigrant you idiot. The USA is underpopulated and needs a workforce, if you can't see immigrants (and let's get over this word - we're talking about Mexicans) working then I'd suggest you take a look around town and see whose working where, the only people I see taking advantage of the system are those who are in the system.

Exporting jobs to other countries...isn't an immigrant issue. It's a big business issue, supported by Bush whom you seem to stand behind - purely to make more money for corporations. Frankly, I've had better service from Indian call centers than most American ones but I agree, if the American ones were trained better and paid better, it shouldn't be farmed out. So take a stance against corportations and big businesses - don't by products from those that use outside labour. While your on it, consider that your computers/TV's etc are going to double in price. In fact, let's start only buying sneakers made in the USA and not China???
You can't have it both ways - if you want Walmart prices, face it - stuff is going to be outsourced to cheaper countries at the expense of the American workforce. I don't agree with it but put the blame where it's due, the politicians and the people who vote for them - the big businesses and those who support them - ultimately you and I, for wanting goods at a cheaper price.

Uriah, you're obviously thinking about this stuff and from what you're stating (gay marriage, abortion issues, etc) you are not as religiously nutty as many of your brethren but you must see, that purely by making some of the statements you make, that you WILL get lumped with them. Step out of the box and make your own mind up on things as you seem to be doing on some topics yet other more important things, you're getting from sources like Fox news or you are of the quaint mis-notion, that speaking out against Bush or the governmant actions is something like, unpatriotic and would sully the name of your friends who died for no cause? Don't do them or yourself the disservice.
seanchai

[dkdangerous]

:eek: holy crap! It's like talking to Homestar Runner on Jesus-crack. Make it stop!

I have a question, seanchai. How are the Ten Commandments a good guideline to live by? I say covet thy neighbor's wife to strengthen the gene pool. Or we get uriahs. Marriage kills evolution, conduct adultery!

[dkdangerous]

PS: I appreciated the original post, seanchai. You know, I read a news article that a woman was suing a school because they wouldn't let her wheelchair-bound son play on the soccer team.

[flombago]

As long as we're talking about "reason", there are a couple of sociological rules that I think apply to online forums. One is that if you write a very long philosophical post, it is likely to be ignored. Short and to-the-point provides the most impact for the effort. Another rule is that if you engage in a detailed personalized argument, it is likely to be tuned out, except by the arguing parties and their closest allies. Therefore I've concluded personally that it's a waste of my time and energy to argue at length. I basically just let it go, and let the other guy have the last word. (Anyway, I know I'm right 99% of the time. :-D).

Just my attempt to resuscitate reason here.

[uriah]

Your advice is very well taken Flombago...Perhapes I should of shortened my retorts and then some...I have been away for awhile working my ass off but I appreciate the critisisim nontheless...My appologies to Mr. Seanchai and Miss. Della...Good arguments and if you look at previous posts at least I look into your arguments to see where I should stand...I'll continue to look into them as I see this progress but I still have to wonder how a county devided agaisnt it'self can stand so I'll keep an eye out when I have a chance...Good talking to all of you...

[biguy4tvtscd]

The continued death of reason is when abortion is illegal in most states, cell stem research outlawed, intelligent design taught in schools (and science taught as an interpretation), churches not needed to pay taxes.... this is the death of reason. (bold mine)

Given all the money churches bring in, I too used to believe that allowing them to get off scott-free on the taxes was a big truckload of BS. However, I have now done a 180 on that line of thought, and here's why...

One of the many famous quotes of America's founding fathers is "No taxation without representation". Meaning, obviously, that if you pay taxes to the government, your interests should be represented within the government.

If we start taxing the church (any church), by right, we would have to give them a say in government matters. Not only would that conflict directly with the 1st Amendment, but it would also go against common sense (well, my common sense anyway)

If you pay taxes, you have a say. If you don't, you don't.

Now, you can argue that the church already influences politics (well duh), but that influence comes from individual taxpaying members of the church. As taxpaying individuals, they certainly have every right to push their representatives on issues that matter to them.
However, giving the "church" the same right, would immediately create the largest, richest lobbying organization in the world.
Think of it this way...Joe Schmoe, an employee of Halliburton, has little effect on policy. Halliburton, the corporation, has a HUGE effect.

Do you really want to give organized religions the same rights?

Just my 2 shekels